WAS THERE A SWASTIKA ON BISMARCK'S DECK AT FINAL BATTLE?

[John Asmussen]

Hi Olaf,

Having a good time?

I would like to ask you and your fellow moderators to make sure my copyrighted material is removed from this thread and forum. I wonder why you are so eager to participate in this discussion, which btw is off topic, and at the same time allow the use of illegal material?

I know who the sender is and he believes he has a copyright on the Bismarck. But I have no intention of changing the layout of the ship to satisfy him or anybody else.

Also, Olaf, when you quote me then please don't take it out of context. I can see how well it fits into your story and give the readers a completely different impression than the context it is taken from. This is manipulation and you should be above doing things like that.

John Asmussen

[Olaf Held]

John ~ The context is given. You recommended to me not to buy the book as you were thinking it is a waste of money as I only want to look for mistakes and another reason you wrote in an e-mail to me which I don't want to share in public in order to make you not look like a fool.

Thank you for making us aware that this is off-topic, as if I hadn't already noticed. There is a question in the thread title and this question has been answered. So this thread can go anywhere. Would it suit you if we rename it? Maybe a kind of think tank in order to improve your book? You should be happy about very eye looking at this threat. There can be so much input from others to make your book better. Why always share this behind the scenes via e-mail?

Copyrighted material ~ I will give into the hands of the admin as I'm not that confident enough about US copyright law. If one drawing is based on another, then the initial one should be removed if the copyright holder claims it.

Regards ~ Olaf!

EDIT: John, I replied to you via e-mail and it didn't work. I wrote a PM via your own forum, I hope this comes through.

[Bill Gormley]

The question of proper attribution in research is essential, but it's difficult for those of us following this thread to untangle what has occurred between Antonio, John, Olaf (and perhaps others). I hope it is sorted out to everyone's satisfaction, but it's not likely to be accomplished here.

What I'm struggling to understand is whether John's book contains major errors (e.g. miscaptioned photos, multiple instances where available information contradicts the book, etc.), a reasonable number of errors (which are present in nearly every book) or is merely guilty of taking educated guesses to fill in gaps where information is not available, photos are unclear, etc. Again, I'm not sure that will be sorted out here, but I hope to see a formal review on this site down the road.

[John Asmussen]

Olaf and Forum Admin,

I again ask you to remove my drawing which Jose Rico, under cover, illegally has posted in this thread.

If you don't do this I'm forced to take legal actions against the owner of this forum.

I don't care what you think or don't think. The drawing is an original drawing made by me and be sure that I can document that. So stop your smear campaign.

REMOVE IT NOW.

John

[Cadman]

John,

You need to calm down. I for one do not know Jose Rico or what his cover is. Which copyrighted drawing are you referring to?

Olaf and Forum Admin,

I again ask you to remove my drawing which Jose Rico, under cover, illegally has posted in this thread.

If you don't do this I'm forced to take legal actions against the owner of this forum.

I don't care what you think or don't think. The drawing is an original drawing made by me and be sure that I can document that. So stop your smear campaign.

REMOVE IT NOW.

John

[Jos� M. Rico]

Hello everyone,

Some of you may know me from the Bismarck website that I have been running for many years. I don't know exactly what is going on here as I have not been following this thread. All I can say is that I don't remember me entering any messages on this forum at all, and much less posting anything illegal. I expect a public apology from the person in question.

Olaf Held - Thanks for letting me know about this.

Sincerely,

Jos� M. Rico
http://www.kbismarck.com

Olaf and Forum Admin,

I again ask you to remove my drawing which Jose Rico, under cover, illegally has posted in this thread.

If you don't do this I'm forced to take legal actions against the owner of this forum.

I don't care what you think or don't think. The drawing is an original drawing made by me and be sure that I can document that. So stop your smear campaign.

REMOVE IT NOW.

John

[John Asmussen]

I will not calm down when one of your moderators ignore my request to remove illegal material. Olaf Held knows very well the image in question and he refused to obey my request. At the same time he is not reluctant to comment on it and take side. Maybe it's about time you have a word with your moderators.

I ask you again to remove it.

It is in the following posting: mpgl62 � Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:31 am

Image to the left.

John

[Olaf Held]

I will not calm down when one of your moderators ignore my request to remove illegal material. Olaf Held knows very well the image in question and he refused to obey my request.

John, I wrote in an e-mail and at the same time via PM at your own forum, that I put it into the hands of the admin. He surely knows US copyright law better than I do. User mpgl62 has clearly demonstrated that, although off-topic, that it was you who took copyrighted material and posted it on your website. At least this is the impression I have now. When one takes copyrighted material, and change size of this or that, or even convert it into vector graphics or vice-versa, doesn't grant a new copyright for the now altered image. You are simply not in the position to demand this image to be removed. I don't have anything to do with the post of mpgl62. Stop accusing me of running a smear campaign against you. I fact, after our e-mail exchange I hoped things would calm down and I deliberately did not play your book down in this forum. Stop playing victim here.

I don't have a problem if the admin removes this image and all the posts around it. You seem to have a problem if it stays there. I understand that it does not put you into a good light in the eyes of your followers. You are using it to make me and the forum management appear in a bad light. Did anyone ever question all the images on your website? As we say in my country, don't throw stones when you're sitting in a glass house.

And I repeat what I have written via e-mail: you can't fight me in public and at the same time via e-mail offer to consider my help to make your material even better.


Olaf!

[Cadman]

I will not calm down when one of your moderators ignore my request to remove illegal material.

John, as someone who has had their images stolen, I can tell you that I do not tolerate others posting copyrighted work in this site. However it seems to me that you have no claim to that image. It appears as if the copyright owner has posted it here and thus there is no reason to remove it. I looked at the images and they are clearly derived from the same source. The other image is clearly sharper and cleaner and yours appears to have been colored and slightly altered from it. You can't just copy and Photoshop something and then call it your own. I hope you got the original creators permission to use that image, alter it before adding your own copyright to it.

[John Asmussen]

Cadman,

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. But it is now clear to everybody that you endorse that your forum is used for a smear campaign. You confirm that your forum rules are only for decoration and not protecting any person or user. Personal attacks are tolerated with your blessing and even conducted by your own moderator. You must be very proud of yourself.

I again ask you to remove my image.

John

[Jos� M. Rico]

I may need to check the whole thread again, but if I am not mistaken the only personal attacks that I have seen here are those targeted at me, and the person responsible is not even man enough to apologize after launching such false accusations. I can't say I'm surprised though.

Regarding the images in question I think they speak for themselves.

[John Asmussen]

Rico, your identity has been confirmed by Olaf Held so you have to address him.

You're the one that spread accusations not me. You don't have a copyright on the Bismarck and I have told you many years ago that I have no interest in drawing a fishing boat to make you happy. Secondly, the drawings you use are not made by yourself and I in fact have permission to use them. I got that permission 12-13 years ago. I have never used them though and have no interest in using it.

Also, I have received information that the forum's administration has started to remove entries that supports me. It is very interesting to see that the forum is an active part in this campaign.

I'm sure some of your readers will find it interesting to see how you promote certain viewpoints and prevent others to have their say. It reminds of the policy of certain regimes in the world.

It's pathetic.

John

[Olaf Held]

Rico, your identity has been confirmed by Olaf Held so you have to address him.

What the hell does that mean? Rico is a member here and there was nothing to comfirm.

You're the one that spread accusations not me. You don't have a copyright on the Bismarck and I have told you many years ago that I have no interest in drawing a fishing boat to make you happy. Secondly, the drawings you use are not made by yourself and I in fact have permission to use them. I got that permission 12-13 years ago. I have never used them though and have no interest in using it.

Rico has the permission to show the illustrations on his site. If YOU have a permission to use them, why did you see the need to alter them without making them better? I think you three sort that out on a different channel, not here.

Also, I have received information that the forum's administration has started to remove entries that supports me. It is very interesting to see that the forum is an active part in this campaign.

This is indeed interesting. I just checked the log and there was nothing deleted but spam from dubious sources. If your mysterious informant would like to see screenshots?

I'm sure some of your readers will find it interesting to see how you promote certain viewpoints and prevent others to have their say. It reminds of the policy of certain regimes in the world.

Is it your goal to get banned from here in order to promote your victim role to your followers? You and your entries will be here forever, so that everyone can see what kind of policy you are having.

Any deletion would support you, do you think we are that stupid?


Happy whatever ~ Olaf

[EJFoeth]

[John Asmussen]

Olaf,

You confirmed that mpgl62 was Rico in an email to me so don't try to twist things here.

I don't think it serves you to do others business. I have not altered any drawings. My drawings are made by me from scratch and I can prove that. I think it is about time you mind your own business. If Rico has a problem with me making drawings of Bismarck, then I suggest you leave it to him. If Rico has a problem and accuse me of something I encourage him to take me to court. I will gladly show my documentation that proves that I'm right.

It is clear that you lack technical insight since you can continue to spread all this nonsense.

The fact that you take everything against me for granted clearly shows your agenda. You're blinded by hate and fanatism and think you know everything. But you are so very wrong. I don't remember that you, Olaf, have been chosen as the president of an international naval court that can tell what is right and wrong, and who may do what or not. You have teamed up in an "elite" group to get rid of people you don't like. That way you try to conquoer the scene. It isn't the first time. Maybe you will wipe me out, but there will be others ready to challenge you and your efforts to control the internet. Sooner or later people with a critcal mind will see through all this and realize what is going on. There are some out there that wont believe in everything just because you say it.

I'm not going to contribute any further to the fun in here. I have other more important and interesting things to spend my life on than being a part of this kindergarden. I have to disappoint you and others as I intend to continue to make drawings of Bismarck and other ships. I have done that for many years and I have a right to do that. None of you have ever made such drawings and at the same time you attack those who does. Mind your own business and let me and others mind ours.

John

[Cadman]

My drawings are made by me from scratch and I can prove that.

John if you can do that I urge you to do so. If it proves to be true you will have my public apology and the offending images will be removed.

[Jos� M. Rico]

Just to make things clear for the last time.

I just came here because I was accused of having illegally posted a drawing "under cover" in this thread. It could have been much easier for this person to contact me off-line and ask, but no, the guy thought he knew better and had to come here and accuse me in front of everybody of something I had not done. Then, not only he refused to apologize, but also made a fool out of himself in the process.

If this individual has a problem with the images that user "mpgl62" posted here, then, he should contact Manuel P. Gonz�lez L�pez, who is the original creator of those drawings, and solve any differences with him, not with me. I have nothing to do with that.

That's all.

[Tracy White]

Hey John; I have no real dog in this fight and I have your book; found it to appear to be a good, basic reference for someone (such as myself) who doesn't know a lot about German Naval camouflage. I'm a fellow camouflage specialist (US Navy), researcher, and copywritten works producer.

That said. You do need to tone it down a bit.

US copyright has a fair use clause that permits copywritten material to be posted or used if it falls under certain guidelines. This is clarified here and essentially, a person is allowed to post or use a PORTION of a drawing, with attribution, if it is:

for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research

I would say at best you can request proper attribution. I have no idea which one of those two images is whose. I have no idea what page of the book it's on (I don't have mine in front of me, I'm at work) or the URL of either of them if posted online.

I also agree with Cadman - post your proof. You aren't going to change your opponents views and you need to think "hearts and minds" here. Go after the other readers and show THEM how you're correct. Take the high road, not the petulant "I'm not getting what I want so I'm going to attack everything" path that you seem to be taking. Your reputation and brand is just as affected by how YOU react in public as how your work is reviewed and critiqued. I don't believe your behavior to this point has not helped your case to this point.

[Olaf Held]

@ John ~ Just one last thing to you in this thread:

You confirmed that mpgl62 was Rico in an email to me so don't try to twist things here.

This is what I wrote yesterday morning:

"Hello John ~ Jose is user mpgl-whatever at MWS.com?

I replied to your entry. With regard to (...)"

You surely didn't see the question mark, eh?


Yesterday evening it was this, with all the typos:
I don't run a smear campaign. A user named mpgl62 put the images on. I'm in contact with Jos� and he assured me that he is NOT mpgl62. It must have been one of your other enemies. As a moderator I only can see IPs, but not the person behind it. This would reuire legal action to make the admin give away such data. I guess as webmaster you know this as well.

Before mpgl wrote this...

Please, you can check the 10 diferences:



http://www.kbismarck.com/bism00.gif
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/p ... elarge.gif

... I did not know that his and your images are that similar. Learn something new every day.

I will not further comment on your BS.

@ Tracy ~ The above images are not from the book we have discussed before. The illustrations in there are totally different and much more detailed.

Happy discussing ~ Olaf!



EDIT: I just noticed that John kicked me out of his forum, although I did not utter anything about this topic there. This is now the third time he did so (the second time was also because we bumped together in a different forum). Not that it is a great loss for both, but how far down and childish can we go?

With regard to the topic title, I think the question has been answered, and just in case someone lost track: red banners, white circles and black swasticas were still there when in Norway, but covered with canvas upon arrival (Prinz Eugen video shows this, and there is a good chance they did so on Bismarck as well). When leaving own aircover around Norway, Fleet (L�tjens on board Bismarck) ordered Prinz Eugen to paint over national emblems and air recognition signs with Au�enbordsgrau (I believe this was hull grey, judging from Prinz Eugen photos and Bismarck wreck photos/videos). As there are traces of red, white, black and grey paint visible on the wreck, I believe that during the final battle the swasticas were still covered with grey paint. In my opinion the weather was too bad to undertake paint jobs on main deck. This also put some doubt on yellow turret tops on main and secondary guns, but this is another topic.

Thread closed.