Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans

[MartinJQuinn]

Thanks guys - I did not realized that was the old Hornet sprue, as I've never actually built either kit. I think I had the Hornet kit 10 years ago and sold it!

Sorry for any misinformation.

[snoopy]

Hi everyone,

Is this photo caption correct? I was wondering if it might actually be Enterprise?

"Black smoke pours from the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Yorktown (CV-5), at circa 1400 hrs on 4 June 1942, after she suffered hits from Japanese dive bombers during the Battle of Midway"

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... y_1942.jpg

Thank you,

Chris

[DennisJP]

Yes, that's Yorktown CV-5 at Midway

[Tracy White]

Definitely Yorktown. Enterprise wasn't damaged at Midway. Additionally, Enterprise was in Camouflage Measure 11 (5-N Navy Blue instead of 5-S Sea Blue) and this ship in the photo is in a graded scheme (Measure 12), which Yorktown was wearing at the Battle of Midway.

[Michael Vorrasi]

Hi everyone,

Is this photo caption correct? I was wondering if it might actually be Enterprise?

"Black smoke pours from the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier USS Yorktown (CV-5), at circa 1400 hrs on 4 June 1942, after she suffered hits from Japanese dive bombers during the Battle of Midway"

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... y_1942.jpg

Thank you,

Chris

Most definitely Yorktown, HOWEVER, the photo is printed in reverse. That is really the port side, but it was printed or scanned from a flopped negative. (Enterprise was not attacked during the Battle of Midway. Besides paint schemes, you can always tell Yorktown from Enterprise post 1940 by the large bridge added in front of Yorktown's pilot house. CV-6 never had this. It shows clearly here in this photo.)
Here is the true orientation of that photo from the NHC site:

[snoopy]

Ok, I knew there was something odd about that picture. The AA "half cans" were visible, but if that were starboard... it just didn't make any sense. After lightening the photo by 40%, I can see it now. Much appreciated, Michael and Tracy.

[BSquared18]

Hello,

I'm in the process of modeling the Yorktown CV-5 for the X-Plane flight simulator. I've done a lot of research but still have some gaps that I hope someone on this forum can help me with. My goal is to try to build this model the way it would have looked just prior to the Battle of Midway.

At the end of this post are illustrations showing three ways I've spotted aircraft on the carrier--Two for landing and one for takeoff. It would help a lot if someone familiar with the Yorktown could tell me if these configurations are realistic and, if not, how I can improve on them.

My understanding is that the Yorktown's aircraft complement was:

VF-5: 20 x F4F-4 Wildcat fighters
VB-5: 19 x SBD-3 Dauntless dive-bombers
VS-5: 19 x SBD-3 Dauntless dive-bombers
VT-5: 13 x TBD-1 Devastator torpedo-bombers

One question I have is how many aircraft would typically be parked on the hanger deck, as opposed to the flight deck? The "Landing Config. 40 Aircraft" configuration is a stuffed duck. Would that many aircraft ever be spotted on the flight deck, or would more be below?

The yellow line on the Landing illustrations indicates a barrier. If someone landing an X-Plane plane on the carrier reaches that line, they get bounced around, the way they might in reality. My goal is to create as realistic a situation as possible where a pilot needs to catch an arresting cable, or else. The positioning of the cables and barrier is based on the original blueprints of the carrier, available online.

Thanks for your help.

Bill

On the illustration below, DA = Dauntless, DE = Devastator, and WC = Wildcat. Of course, the Dauntless dive bombers don't have their wings folded because that was not a feature on those aircraft.

[Russ2146]

Well, I'm no expert but I see some problems.

On your "landing Spots", you leave no space ahead of the landing area into which to move, forward of the barrier, after a landing plane has been brought to a stop,

On the "Take-off Spot" I have never seen aircraft spotted in the take-off roll area, in other words ahead of the point where the take-off roll starts.

[Dick J]

I'm in the process of modeling the Yorktown CV-5 for the X-Plane flight simulator. I've done a lot of research but still have some gaps that I hope someone on this forum can help me with. My goal is to try to build this model the way it would have looked just prior to the Battle of Midway.[/img]

I am not sure how far you want to take the accuracy, but the "plan" you are using looks more like Hornet than Yorktown. I presume that the deck lettering (YKTN) is to distinguish one CV from another for simulator purposes. But those letters disappeared pre-war and would not have been present at Midway. Also, Airgroup 5 had been badly shot up in the Coral Sea, and they had to cobble together a scratch group with the Saratoga planes still at Pearl. At Midway, Yorktown carried VF-3, VB-3, VS-5 and VT-3. VF-3 had been increased to 27 wildcats, just like the squadrons on Hornet and Enterprise. However, a deck landing accident, when the group came aboard, cost the squadron 2 aircraft (and the XO). You should adjust your numbers accordingly.

[Tracy White]

Yeah, your deck markings are more interpretive than factual; it also looks like you put Hornet's Doolittle Raid deck markings down.

There really wasn't a set "landing configuration" as the aircraft landed largely in the order they arrived. They would do some deck spotting by type, but not the way you have it depicted. As soon as the landing evolution finished they would start running the aircraft back to the stern and re-spotting for launch.

[BSquared18]

Thank you for your very helpful information. I'd like to follow up on the comments:

Re: "On your "landing Spots", you leave no space ahead of the landing area into which to move, forward of the barrier, after a landing plane has been brought to a stop,"

Very good point. Shows that I'm a novice when it comes to aircraft carriers.

Re: "On the "Take-off Spot" I have never seen aircraft spotted in the take-off roll area, in other words ahead of the point where the take-off roll starts."

I see your point. Doing so would be dangerous. I based the spotting on a Critical Past video that I watched, where a Dauntless was taking off past two other similar craft. Below is a link to a screen grab from the video; I tried to locate the clip again to provide a link but couldn't find it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/ ... tVideo.jpg

Re: "those letters disappeared pre-war and would not have been present at Midway"

Thanks! I was working off the original blueprints and didn't realize the letters were removed. I'll fix that.

Re: "VF-3 had been increased to 27 wildcats, just like the squadrons on Hornet and Enterprise. However, a deck landing accident, when the group came aboard, cost the squadron 2 aircraft (and the XO). You should adjust your numbers accordingly."

Here is one place (of many, apparently) where I need help. In my initial post, I ask how many aircraft would have been stored below, on the hanger deck. When set up for landings, how many of each type of craft (on the Yorktown) might typically have been on the flight deck, versus on the hanger deck?

Can anyone point me to photos of the actual Yorktown or models of the carrier that show what a typically spotting during landings (and takeoffs too, for that matter) might look like? On the carrier model I'm creating, the parked aircraft are static and cannot be moved once the model is published; that's why I have different models for takeoffs and landings.

Re: "Yeah, your deck markings are more interpretive than factual; it also looks like you put Hornet's Doolittle Raid deck markings down."

Are you referring to the two lines running most of the length of the carrier? If so, I certainly will remove them from this model. Can you point out any other non-factual markings? The goal is to try to make the model as realistic as possible.

Re: "There really wasn't a set "landing configuration" as the aircraft landed largely in the order they arrived. They would do some deck spotting by type, but not the way you have it depicted. As soon as the landing evolution finished they would start running the aircraft back to the stern and re-spotting for launch."

That certainly makes sense. For our purposes, let's assume that what is being depicted in the landing model is what the spotting would look like part way through the landing evolution. It sounds like you're saying the aircraft would not be as neatly placed as I have them. Again, any links to photos, drawings, etc. of what the deck would look like in the middle of landing would be greatly appreciated. Same for takeoff too.

Any more comments?

Bill

[Tracy White]

Here is one place (of many, apparently) where I need help. In my initial post, I ask how many aircraft would have been stored below, on the hanger deck. When set up for landings, how many of each type of craft (on the Yorktown) might typically have been on the flight deck, versus on the hanger deck?

Two points.

1) hangar
2) USN procedures were to keep the air group on the deck as much as possible. Aircraft were refueled and re-armed on the deck and typically only moved below for repair or if there was an extended period of non-use. This was a method of increasing the rate of turn around; the Japanese moved their planes below for refuel and re-arm, and that meant it took longer for them to get their air groups ready for a second strike.

So pretty much everything should have been on deck to launch the first strike. If you look at Yorktown's operational history for the Battle of Midway, you can see how many aircraft were shot down and didn't make it back for your "landing" spotting (I believe you said you have Shattered Sword?).

There isn't a lot on Yorktown's deck markings due to the nature of her rapid turn around and loss. We do know that she had alternating lines down the deck; port, starboard and center. You can see the very bow markings on this photo of her sinking. I'll see if I have a copy of a screen grab from a DVD that might show you position of the other lines. I haven't seen, that I can remember, evidence that she had elevator outlines, but I'd be surprised if she did not.

[Dick J]

It sounds like you're saying the aircraft would not be as neatly placed as I have them. Again, any links to photos, drawings, etc. of what the deck would look like in the middle of landing would be greatly appreciated.

In general terms, as the aircraft landed, they would be pushed as far forward as possible. A certain level of "neatness" was required to park the maximum number in the minimum space. Crowding the aircraft all the way forward accomplished two necessary things. First, it created the greatest "buffer" for each landing aircraft. One could never be sure which wire the plane would catch, or what mishaps would occur. Second, if you were landing a large strike group, you would need the tight pack forward to make room for the last planes to come aboard. By packing them tightly from the start, it eliminated the need to "restack" the group to make room for the last planes. The deck spot was more of an art than a science. There were few hard rules, but the "yellow shirts" had a lot of experience to base their decisions on. At Midway, Yorktown seemed to have the more efficient launch spot. She was the only one of the three that put all three aircraft types over target at the same time. According to some accounts, TF-16 (Hornet and Enterprise) spent an inordinate amount of time on the morning launch sequence. This implies that you would not have an easy single standard that you could build for your simulation.

[BSquared18]

Your explanation of how the hanger was used is very helpful.

No, I don't have Shattered Sword. But thanks for mentioning it. I'll check to see if it is available at our library or through interlibrary loan. I have been reading the Kindle version of Walter Lord's Incredible Victory:The Battle of Midway.

My plan has been to depict the Yorktown prior to the battle, not after the planes attacked the Japanese carriers. On the other hand, the more aircraft I include, the more powerful the user's computer needs to be to keep the action from slowing down to an unacceptable level. For example, my computer can barely handle the 40-aircraft configuration.

I'll need to give more thought to what a good compromise would be.

Bill

[BSquared18]

Below is an image of a model of Yorktown CV-5.



In this depiction, the aircraft are oriented in straight lines, whereas on my models (initial post), I have many of them at an angle. Should I straighten out the angled ones? It seemed to me that angling allowed for more aircraft in a given space. But perhaps angling would make it more difficult to respot the planes?

Another thing I notice in the image above is that the planes fill up the deck as far as the forward end of the island. In the takeoff mode, I have the planes further back, to allow for more space to take off. That seems consistent with the movies I've seen of aircraft taking off from Yorktown class carriers.

Comments?

Thanks
Bill

[s4usea]

Below is an image of a model of Yorktown CV-5.



In this depiction, the aircraft are oriented in straight lines, whereas on my models (initial post), I have many of them at an angle. Should I straighten out the angled ones? It seemed to me that angling allowed for more aircraft in a given space. But perhaps angling would make it more difficult to respot the planes?

Another thing I notice in the image above is that the planes fill up the deck as far as the forward end of the island. In the takeoff mode, I have the planes further back, to allow for more space to take off. That seems consistent with the movies I've seen of aircraft taking off from Yorktown class carriers.

Comments?

Thanks
Bill

I've seen them in staggered rows to maximize aircraft, as in the rows not nose to tail end to end but nose to wingtip in the row ahead...

[Tracy White]

OK, some stuff for you. Here is the action report for Yorktown, listing launches, etc., which should help you determine how many of what type you might want to place on deck.

These posts earlier in this thread may also help:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=12986&start=20#p138972
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=12986&start=60#p308105

[BSquared18]

Wow. Incredible stuff.

Thanks much,
Bill

[Tracy White]

We have a passing interest

[DennisJP]

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/0206aa.jpg

Here is a little bit of help I'm still looking. LOL
This is Enterprise landing aircraft after an airstrike in early 42 or late 41. This shows you a little on how tightly they packed the front of the ship during landing. The barracades, correct me if I'm wrong are next to the island, so they had to pack them in in front of that with reasonable room for the barracade to stop a plane that missed the wire.