Calling all Soviet Kirov-class (Орлан) Project 1144 & Slava-class (Атлант) Project 1164 fans

[Sean Hert]

Try this:



According the instructions for Varyag, that's it.

[Neptune]

Yeah I'll send it over. It's one of the cranes, first one, the big crane between funnel, gets the missile canister onboard, then this thing grabs it and turns it to the other side. It's not always visible as it can be retracted. Or, like on Kirovs can be put in a horizontal position for storage. After this phase, the thing puts the canister on the racks you can see on both Slava and Kirovs, just next to the reload hatch. Then the canister goes below deck and there it's transported via railcart to the place where it's needed.

I'll send what I got, if I can find it back, over to you Andrey.

Regards
Roel

[Neptune]

Here is a picture that somewhat shows it. In the upper left corner, you can see the "rack" standing up straight, in the position it normally receives the canister. The "Pincer" is standing next to it, that's the device you guys are looking for. Then it goes to a horizontal position, you can see the reload hatch more to the middle, next to it. The grey one. I know, a VERY strange and complicated system, there are probably a billion easier ways to reload this VLS, but somehow they developed this....

The good pictures (well at least I remember them, I'm not sure whetehr they are still on my old computer) are at home, so you'll have to have some patience till the next weekend...

[ADebroux]

Has anyone heard any news or photos of the 4th Slava-class cruiser? The only distinctive feature that I know of is that the funnel is a single casing instead of split into two like on the other 3 ships. It's currently in a Ukrainian shipyard about 95% complete, but an issue of Warships International Fleet Review the Ukrainian govt has decided to put the ship up for sale, with China being the most likely buyer. A Slava-class cruiser completed for service in the PLAN sounds like an interesting subject for a model.

[350z]

The good pictures (well at least I remember them, I'm not sure whetehr they are still on my old computer) are at home, so you'll have to have some patience till the next weekend...

Thanks, nice story that explains a lot. This can wait, take your time, Roel!

[Neptune]

Ukraina is indeed for sale. Yet China wouldn't want it I think. It has Top Dome installed, while China already posses the Rif-M with Tombstone instead. And it has Bazalt launchers, a missile that's not allowed for export due to its long range.

Here are some pictures:
http://flot.sevastopol.info/photos/phot ... ina_03.htm
http://flot.sevastopol.info/photos/phot ... na_01.htm
http://flot.sevastopol.info/photos/phot ... ina_02.htm

Some minor changes though. I wouldn't want to buy such an old hulk, and China really is going to buy it, it would be only for a scrap value, like they did with Varyag (the carrier).

[Neptune]

Pieter, you haven't directly said I shouldn't buy it, but what would you do if you read this:

For about 15 euros you get a nice weekend project
which will result into something that kind of looks like a Slava from a
large distance.

Would you buy something that remotely looks like the ship you want to build??? I don't... And I don't want to do surgery for now too, work enough with Ti Europe and others.

[350z]

Has anyone heard any news or photos of the 4th Slava-class cruiser? The only distinctive feature that I know of is that the funnel is a single casing instead of split into two like on the other 3 ships. It's currently in a Ukrainian shipyard about 95% complete, but an issue of Warships International Fleet Review the Ukrainian govt has decided to put the ship up for sale, with China being the most likely buyer. A Slava-class cruiser completed for service in the PLAN sounds like an interesting subject for a model.

Yes, she is 95-97% ready and previous govt (Timoshenko) asked military export folks to find buyers. There is not need for Ukraine to have something that big in a sea that look like a big lake. The alt solution might be to convert her to AAW cruiser with all Bazalts removed (since Bazalts are manufactured in Russia and flawed due to high trajectory of flight) and replaced by something like Uran. In such role she will fits well AAW defense of Ukraine since recent history shows that danger in modern world comes from the sea ( Yugoslavia, Iraq )

[Pieter]

Modelers have been working with shape errors like that for a very long time and I am actually correcting and error like that currently (deck of an Airfix 1/495-ish Great Western). In 1/700 many early waterline kits are as bad in hull and Hasagawa and Aoshima let you pay more for it (Aoba and Yamashiro). It's just that I don't expect this anymore from recent kits with all the wonderful CNC equipment available to Trumpeter. They could and should have done it right.
_
[quote="Neptune"]Pieter, you haven't directly said I shouldn't buy it, but what would you do if you read this:
[quote]For about 15 euros you get a nice weekend project
which will result into something that kind of looks like a Slava from a
large distance.[/quote]
Would you buy something that remotely looks like the ship you want to build??? I don't... And I don't want to do surgery for now too, work enough with Ti Europe and others.[/quote]

[maxim]

@ Pieter: I read your review and I have several comments:

1.) I can't see the slight S form towards to bow on photos of the original.

2.) One problem of the trumpeter's hull appears to be, that the deck edges are not flattened at the bow (up to the Bazalts) and the stern. This could cause an impression, that the hull form is wrong - especially, if it is seen from front site. Also Trumpeter's hull knuckle is about 2 cm too short, which intensifies this impression, that the overall shape is wrong.

3.) The name of Moskva is written with white letters - not gold.

[Pieter]

Maxim,
The slight 'S' form is based on the drawing in Pavlov and on the almost straight from the beam picture of Marshal Ustinov on the first full photo-page of "Slava, Udaloy and Sovremenny" by Stephen J Zaloga (which doesn't have page numbers, GRRRR!). This picture combined with the straight bow view of Marshal Ustinov on the 9th full photo-page of this publication led to my comments about the hull being too low, not 'full' enough forward and the sheer going up too far forward. Most other pictures I could find are taken at an oblique angle which makes it very difficult to get a good view of what the hull form actually was. It is possible to sketch the hull from oblique pictures if you have a reliable 90 degree cross section (midships preferably) and a longtudinal section but for the Slava Class I didn't have any reliable cross-sections.
The names of Marshal Ustinov and Slava were written sometimes in gold with white borders and soemtimes in white. Maybe the gold-ish paint wore off rather quickly. It is more easy to modify a decal by filling in the gold section with white than the other way around.
BTW thanks for you comments! I write my reviews as a starting point for discussion, not as the definitive thruth (which doesn't exist anyway).

[maxim]

The slight 'S' form is based on the drawing in Pavlov and on the almost straight from the beam picture of Marshal Ustinov on the first full photo-page of "Slava, Udaloy and Sovremenny" by Stephen J Zaloga

You mean, that the deck stops to rise at the extrem bow? Like in the Udaloy class, but less pronounced? On most photos I can't see this. It must be very slight. I can only see this on photos, which show Slavas from the front. I think, that could be an effect of the flattened deck edges.

not 'full' enough forward

Here you are probably right. I think, that is at least partly an effect of the too short knuckle.

Most other pictures I could find are taken at an oblique angle which makes it very difficult to get a good view of what the hull form actually was. It is possible to sketch the hull from oblique pictures if you have a reliable 90 degree cross section (midships preferably) and a longtudinal section but for the Slava Class I didn't have any reliable cross-sections.

Yes, that would help a lot.

The names of Marshal Ustinov and Slava were written sometimes in gold with white borders and soemtimes in white. Maybe the gold-ish paint wore off rather quickly.

I know many photos of Russian ships with golden/yellow names, but Moskwa has white letters:

[/img]

[maxim]

Here the hull of Trumpeter's Moskva compared to the real Moskva:


@ Pieter: Could you mark, what do you criticise?

[Timmy C]

The only thing I can see that might be wrong from that view is the very tip of the bow on the deck...

[Pieter]

Two things are wrong in this picture; The 'tip' should be slightly flattened and the hull does not start to rise twoards the bow until the forward end of the missile battery, which make a lot of difference in freeboard and hull volume forward. It reminds me of teh 'Sjywave hull' phenomenon on thier Sumner/Gearings.

[maxim]

Two things are wrong in this picture; The 'tip' should be slightly flattened

Are you sure, that you do not mean the effect of the flattened deck edges? These are missing at Trumpeter's hull and also in my photo the deck is missing, which cause the bow to appear steeper.

and the hull does not start to rise twoards the bow until the forward end of the missile battery, which make a lot of difference in freeboard and hull volume forward. It reminds me of teh 'Sjywave hull' phenomenon on thier Sumner/Gearings.

Do you think, that Trumpeter's hull starts to late to rise, it rise too much forward? On the original Moskva the hull starts to rise in front of the second Bazalt launcher. Trumpeter's hull starts rise on the same position.

In my opinion there are to faults:

the missing flattened deck edges at the bow (until the third Bazalt launcher) and the stern;

the knuckle is too short.

Both faults are not very problematic to solve.

[Pieter]

The hull rising too for forward (and there's a slight rise starting at the Fort launcher area which Trumpter doesn't take up at all) gives a visible lack of hull volume forward and makes the forward superstructure and Bazal't sit wrong. This is rather visible after assembly of these structures.

[maxim]

The hull rising too for forward (and there's a slight rise starting at the Fort launcher area which Trumpter doesn't take up at all) gives a visible lack of hull volume forward and makes the forward superstructure and Bazal't sit wrong. This is rather visible after assembly of these structures.

I still try to find this on photos. But this is really dificult, because I found no photo, which show exactly the profile. In the following photo I inserted a dotted rectangle to compare the deck line and the water line:



But Moskva's bow is on this photo nearer to the photographer than the stern. Therefore it appears, that the deck is higher in the area of the Fort launchers than midships. If the deck rises from the Fort launchers to the Bazalt launchers, than this rise is very slight.

I compare also many drawings, but all show differences and therefore I prefere to analyse photos.

[Pieter]

Hi, after posting my short review on SMML a short discussion developed between me and Falk Pletscher (literally a master modeller- hed did some masters for Delphi's and WSW). He's agreed to post this thread here. I think he may be right about the hull problem and I'll try his fix on my kit in slightly modified way (I will use a tapered piece of plastic at the knuckle) when I return to modelling Soviet subjects. )
From: Pieter Cornelissen <wanderer98@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: Trumpeter Slava

>> I was happy to have an easy-to-build kit of a Slava class cruiser
before I read Pieter Cornelissen's posting in SMML Vol. 2998. After that, I
had to check my own references. And after this, I would like to add the
following comments:

In a book by Apal'kov: Udarnye Korabli from 2003 the dimensions of
Project 1164 (Slava class) are given as follows:

Loa - 186,0m, Lwl - 170,0m, Boa - 20,8m, Bwl - 19,2m.

According to these figures, the Trumpeter kit measures out quite
correctly, while the Kombrig kit is about 1mm to long on the waterline and
2 - 2.5mm too large in beam. There are also some drawings in 1/700 scale,
and the Trumpeter kit is matching them pretty well. According to this
source, Project 11641 (Varyag) was 6m longer than Project 1164, and none of
the kits is correct in this aspect.

In my opinon, Pieter's comments on the shape of the fore part of the hull
are arguable. My impression is, that the Trumpeter kit is almost correct.
But there might be differences between the ships of this class.

I am not quite sure if the shape of the after part of the hull (quarter
deck) is not given more correctly with the Kombrig kit. Compared with
photos, the Trumpeter kit may be a little too narrow.

The Kombrig kit has straight vertical funnel sides. With the Trumpeter
kit, the outer funnel sides are leaning a bit outboard. Compared with
photos, this seems to be correct.

After all, the Trumpeter kit appears to be a bit better. But you will
need at least the Kombrig PE fret and their decals to build a propper kit.
So don't throw away your Kombrig kits. <<

Falk,

The main problem with the forward hull shape is that the sheer line
starts to go up too far forward in the Trumpeter kit (ths 's' shape at the
bow is a minor problem) and that the whole hull seems to be a bit too low.
This means that the forward part of the forward superstructure and the
missile cannisters 'sit' too low. This is really noticable once you have
assembled them, and it was this observation that started my own digging
through pictures and references. I would not use the word 'arguable' for
that and this is a problem which is very difficult to correct.

About the lenght, Pavlov gives the same over all figures but does not
mention a Bwl and Lwl figure. This means I did not spot the Bwl problem,
which can be fixed by filing away resin (My own Slava is in the rigging
phase so I wont't be doing that I think). I also wonder if the Bwl figure
is correct when looking at the few pictured from straight ahaead I have
seen as it will mean a very sharp knuckle compared to these pictures. I
wonder how you found a correct over all length for the Trumpeter kit with
these figures, but 2mm in lenght is a possible error on a lenght of 26,5 cm
so that may have been my mistake.

BTW I do not consider the Trumpeter/Skywave approach of a large number of
seperate superstructure panels easy-to-built but this is a question of
building style. Oh well, back to correcting Great Western. I love working
on a kit for which full lines are available, even if the kit is in 1/495.

Pieter Cornelissen
Delft
The Netherlands
andFrom: "F. Pletscher" <f.pletscher@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: Trumpeter Slava

Sorry Pieter, I misunderstood your comments on the shape of the hull. I
examined it again, and you are right. It took some time until I found out
what is really wrong with the Trumpeter kit. It is the main deck. Its level
above the knuckle is too low. I spent some time of the weekend trying to
fix this. I cut off the quarter deck. Then I cemented the main deck to the
hull. After it had dried, I cut off the hull along the knuckle line. Then I
added some 0.5 mm of plastic sheet under the knuckle and at the bow. The
hull now has to be put together again, and what is left is a lot af filling
and sanding and some adjustments at the quarter deck.

As for over all length of the trumpeter kit, I measured out mine again.
It is about 266 mm, and I do regard this as pretty good for 186 m in 1/700
scale.

I also came upon some color photoes in a French book, La Marine
sovi�tique, by Claude Huan, which shows the names of Slava and Marshal
Ustinov written white upon the hull in the 1980s.

Falk Pletscher

[Neptune]

Basically for me, if a problem takes two pages of discussion to make it clear, then I think it's not that important. The deck indeed seems to rise a bit, but in my perseption that can hardly be seen in a 1/700 model.
I think I'll buy the model, whenever I finish Kuznetsov and Velikiy.

I am also looking for a number of "Boris Chilikin" class pictures. I have already gathered several good pictures, but I need more of them to try and start a scratchbuild model of that Replenishment Vessel.

Now here are some promised pictures. Her name is Alrosa, she's a Black Sea Fleet Kilo class submarine, refitted several years back with an experimental Pump Jet propulsion. These are the first real Russian pump jet pictures, and they are probably something no one could have wished for in the past. Great modelling project I think. Something nice to do with a Trumpeter 1/144 Kilo!

Pictures are courtesy of A Brishevsky. Taken yesterday in Sevastopol.





Regards
Roel