Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[PeeJay333]

...found a number of pre-war camouflage patterns for application of Measure 31 to these ships.

Welcome aboard! Just a quick correction, the dazzle schemes didn't come about until 1943, and weren't a pre-war scheme.

Camouflage measures didn't exist until January of 1941, and up until that point everything was #5 Standard Navy Gray with the exception of ships they were experimenting with. Measure 3 is similar to the prewar colors, but it is incorrect to say (such as Squadron's Destroyer Camouflage book suggested) that the prewar scheme *was* Measure 3.

Thank you for the clarification. What I should have said is "Camouflage patterns for these pre-war classes of Destroyers," meaning the 'pre-war' was descriptive of the ships and not the camo patterns. Here are two examples of the Benson/Gleaves patterns I found in the National Archives Photos.

PeeJay

[Tracy White]

Yes, and in case you haven't been there before, or for others that haven't, we've posted those with a time line for each ship on the ShipCamouflage.com Benson/Gleaves page

[Reid]

...

[PeeJay333]

Yes, and in case you haven't been there before, or for others that haven't, we've posted those with a time line for each ship on the ShipCamouflage.com Benson/Gleaves page

I thought that was where I originally found these diagrams for the Fletchers, but after my computer got replaced, I lost all of my bookmarks. I found the listing and timeline for each ship in the Fletcher class and the Benson Gleaves classes, but I can't find the link that actually takes me to the diagrams. So I went through the photo archive listing and downloaded the diagrams I found there. I would still appreciate the link to the diagrams on the Camouflage Site if you can tell me how to get there. Thank you.

PeeJay

[Timmy C]

All of the patterns that have diagrams uploaded are indicated with an underline. Just click on them to see the diagram.

[PeeJay333]

All of the patterns that have diagrams uploaded are indicated with an underline. Just click on them to see the diagram.

Thank you. That must have been how I got there the first time.

PeeJay

[Reid]

Rick, would happen to have any info on the middle deckhouse underneath the after quint-TTs? They differ from the ships who have the search light (which my plans show) in place of the TTs. I know they are angled and there is a great photo of the Monssen that show is area very clearly. But photos aren't plans and plans aren't photos.

[Rick E Davis]

Reid,

Well I don't have a lot, on this area. The DML kits seem to model this area well. MEREDITH was an original GLEAVES class unit, but in this area the BENSONs were similar. At the bottom are a couple of close-up views of the Aft Torpedo Tubes Foundation structure. Because the smoke uptakes and some of the fresh air returns were below this area and entered the main deck, an "arching" structural support was installed to transfer the load to bearing areas outside the intakes. (see the construction view aboard DD-427) The sides of the foundation then appears to be covered in sloping bulkheads with stowage lockers being utilized. Also, at least on the starboard side of many units (all?) a stowage cabinet/locker was installed attached to the foundation. (see attached view of GRAYSON in July 1942) At the same time (at least on GRAYSON) there doesn't appear to be a corresponding locker on the portside. There doesn't seem to be a single standard set of lockers added to the aft TT mount foundation. (see the 1945 plans for MAYO) In many cases, it appears that the addition of these various cabinets/lockers and stowage of other equipment covered the sloping sides of the TT mount foundation.

I have limited views of BENSON-GLEAVES class drawings from official Booklet of General Plans at the National Archives. The closest I have are for USS MAYO in 1945 rig and then I don't have complete plans of all aspects. I can't afford to buy scans of ALL plans I look at or have an interest in, but I take digital camera images and keep a "database" of them. If I find an overwhelming need for a set of scanned plans, I get them later. I have a modeling project dealing with USS MAYO, so she got priority.

I would suggest for MEREDITH as modeled at the time of her loss, to look at photos of her sister GRAYSON taken at Mare Island in July 1943 as your best guide. The first few units of the repeat-GLEAVES class (DD-453 on) also still had this foundation built in, there was too much work to take it out and replace with a more conventional deckhouse as was used on most repeat-GLEAVES units.

WARNING. The following deck plans apply to USS MAYO in 1945 ... structures and location of weapons won't necessarily apply to MEREDITH in 1942.

This view shows an inboard profile of "as built" contract plans of the midship area for the BENSON class (which was in general used for the GLEAVES class as well). For the GLEAVES class, a more conventional deckhouse was built between the aft stack and the aft TT mount.


This view shows the deck plan of 01 deck amidships for USS MAYO in 1945.


This view shows the main deck view amidships for USS MAYO in 1945.

[Dick J]

Something to be aware of is one of the differences between Benson and Gleaves class DD's. On the Gleaves class, the angled boiler uptakes at the front and back of this middle structure were enclosed by the deckhouse. On the Bensons, they were not. The angled uptakes were exposed and a catwalk led from the central deckhouse to the torpedo tube foundation.

[Zad Fnark]

Hi Guys,

I've eagerly received my Dragon 1/350 1945 Benson. I'm probably going to depict her as this particular ship.

As for colors, I'm torn between using MS 21 and MS 22. I'm not ready to try MS 32 with my first "proper" warship build and I simply like the looks of the other two better.

I saw a '45 pic in NavSource showing what's probably MS 21. My question is that if I depect here in MS 22, (1943, I presume), is there a lot of mod work I need to do with this kit to show her in the correct layout when she wore it?

Hopefully the kit will have most of it. I refrained from too much aftermarket stuff with this one, due to the better quality in-kit -- just the Gold Medal photoetch.

Thanks

Ed Blesch

[Rick E Davis]

Ed,

If you are referring to modeling BENSON in her 1945 configuration, then Ms 21 would be appropriate. When she had her last wartime overhaul in early 1945, she was painted in dazzle, but prior to going to the Pacific she was repainted into Ms 21. So if you which to paint her in Ms 21 that would be best without many mods unless you which to correct a few minor errors with the kit (the BENSON-GLEAVES kits are a compromise between a WIDE range of configurations and some things aren't exactly right for 1945 BENSON).

The problem with modeling BENSON in her 1943 configuration, she was still in the early five 5-in gun configuration without any 40-mm guns. In that configuration, you would be best starting with a 1940 BENSON kit.




She was upgraded to pretty much the configuration in the kit in early 1944 with two twin 40-mm mounts. Except she had the temporary AA augmentation for service in the MED ... a platform replaced the aft torpedo tube bank with four 20-mm guns installed on it. Also, she had two single 40-mm guns installed on the main deck between the twin 40-mm mounts and the four 20-mm platform. The platform isn't in any of the BENSON-GLEAVES class kits from DML. But, it wouldn't be hard to scatch-build.

[Zad Fnark]

Thank you very much, Rick -- very helpful. I had seen 1943 pics with the five 5" guns, but the 1944 pic is new to me.

I don't want to do something that will get me laughed at by those who know better.

I had been wading through this thread, and it's gone in many directions with particular ships. Every one seems unique in its own way.

Looking online, everyone seems to list either her initial setup or her last.

Whenever I finish her, I'll post some pics. I have some wash/drybrushing techniques I want to try. I had mostly been a 1/48 airplane guy (with a love of naval history), but took a break with my Warhammer hobby. I learned quite a bit about painting doing that, so it wasn't for nothing.

Ed-

[Tracy White]

Amplifying what Rick says, when the kit was being planned, we gave Dragon the two possible camouflage schemes. Dazzle was chosen for the box art as it makes it "pop" so much more, but we also knew that she painted out of it by the time she was in action in the Pacific.

PS, no one should laugh.

[Reid]

Thanks for the info Rick!! That is very helpful. Kinda opened a can of worms for me though.
On that note, Dick, is this kinda what you were talking about (see attached). This is supposedly a pic of the Meredith as you can see near the after TTs, it looks like there is another sloped portion of deckhouse just forward of the sloped back area.

I'll post of what i have been working on to get some professional input.

[Rick E Davis]

Reid,

Dick is talking about the difference between the BENSON class and the GLEAVES class layout of their midships deckhouses. The BENSON class were built without building a deckhouse over the stack uptakes and the GLEAVES class did. The forward uptake (images 2 & 3) on the BENSON class and the space between the aft stack and the aft torpedo tube mount (images 1 & 4) many times (depending on when and what configuration) had false decks built over these areas so that they could be used for stowage or other purposes. It is real hard to find photos for these areas with the ships boats and the various lockers/cabinets/gear stowed.

Since MEREDITH is a GLEAVES class unit, the midships deckhouse extended from the fore mast area to just beyond the aft torpedo tubes foundation ... with varying structures added or removed over time by different builders or USN requirements. The uptakes on GLEAVES class units couldn't be seen at all. I don't have any good drawings of GLEAVES class to show the difference.

[Reid]

OOHHHH!!!!! That has really cleared up a lot!! thank you so much for the clarification!

[robertandy]

I have read all 40+ pages here and man they are great. I got a lot of good answers here a couple years back about the Buchanan so I figure what the heck? I want to build a Gleaves class 1942, Pacific pre-October 42 paint change order, with MS 12 mod cammo. I have always wanted to try that paint scheme. So using the Livermore kit any suggestions? Does that make sense? I am very good at scratchbuilding so that is not a problem, so adding a mount or platform is no problem,
Rob

[Rick E Davis]

Your build will depend on which ship you wish to model.

The only "early" (up to DD-444) GLEAVES class units to serve in the Pacific were those in DesDiv 22 (DD-433 through 436) and the 1942 LIVERMORE kit would be a good "starting" point depending on "when" you are modeling the ship. Key here maybe is finding which unit has adequate photographic coverage showing the camo used to model with certainty the correct pattern.

The other GLEAVES class (and a few BENSON class units) to see service while still in Ms 12mod, are the repeat units (DD-453 and after). For these units either the BUCHANAN 1942 or LAFFEY 1942 kits are the better choices as a starting point. Defining which units had what camo from this group can be difficult particular for when they switched over to Ms 21. Plus the photographic coverage for these units vary.

Here is a listing of units that were delivered in the Ms 12mod camo scheme and with the quad 1.1-in as seen with the BUCHANAN/LAFFEY kits;

GLEAVES Class

DD-483 AARON WARD
DD-484 BUCHANAN
DD-485 DUNCAN
DD-486 LANSDOWNE
DD-487 LARDNER
DD-488 McCALLA

BENSON Class

DD-459 LAFFEY
DD-460 WOODWORTH
DD-491 FARENHOLT
DD-492 BAILEY
DD-598 BANCROFT
DD-599 BARTON*
DD-602 MEADE** (may have received upgrade to two twin 40-mm mounts prior to going to the Pacific and been repainted to Ms 21 at the same time)

After the above units, likely the remaining units reporting to the Pacific were repainted into Ms 21 prior to seeing service in the Pacific and some of the above towards the end of the lists are known to have had their camo schemes changed from what it was when delivered prior to going to the Pacific (* aka BARTON apparently had a different Ms 12mod pattern applied), but no photos have surfaced showing it or they could have repainted to Ms 21 during post-shakedown yard periods (**).


Go to Navsource, DestroyerHistory.org and/or NHHC websites look at the photos for the above, study individual ship histories, and figure out which unit you would like to model. Once you have narrowed your choice down, we may be able to provide more details.

[robertandy]

Thanks, now one thing I do have is a Buchanan kit that was damaged beyond repair by movers during a recent move, so I will have parts from it if need be!
Rob

[robertandy]

So after looking at the choices how easy/hard would it be to do USS Plunkett from the Livermore kit? They seem pretty close, and yes I know my original question regarded a Pacific ship, but in reading the Atlantic escorts caught my intrest.
Rob