The Ship Model Forum

Great ... slowly it becomes more clearer here with that hammock issue.

@ Darius
Jesteś z Polski? Moja żona jest w polskiej i nauczylem się języka przez ostatnie 9 lat + Moja praca od czasu do czasu w Poznaniu ... jako tako nauczyl się języka. Trudno jest pisac, mówienie jest latwiejsze

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The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

This is a poor quality photo of Mikasa after Tsushima from Russian publication "Morskaja Kolekcija" 08/2004:


I used to have photo like this but of better quality and in highier resolution. Unfortunatelly I have lost it in HD crash and, despite searching the net numerous times, can't find it again. Does anybody have such a photo by any chance?

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Unfortunatelly I can't help you here Darius, but an interesting photo with the previously earned and repaired damages on funnels from battle of Yellow Sea. Thank you for this!

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

In MK 08/2004 this photo is about twice the size of the one that I have posted Christian. If you want, I can email you the full size one.

OK I have found a photo which appears to show that hammocks were indeed used as protection on Mikasa's bridges and masts:
http://www.nichiro-sensou.com/gallery/l ... mikasa.jpg

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Will be fine Darius, my email you have still?

About hammocks, indeed, these is hammock splinter guard they wear on photo. So not only the well known oil paint showing them.
But photo is in other matter interesting too. As visible, one of the 12inch barrels is missing and if this is really Mikasa, it could only be made at 2 possible situations:
a) after battle of Yellow Sea when aft turret was heavy damaged with one barrel broken, but beside missing barrel is no further damage visible as on other photos.
b) at normal barrel change, means when worn out barrels were replaced and this happened as far as I know 1 or 2 times during the war.

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

i have in better resolution this page of a russian book (cover in annex).
if you are interested send pm your emai,l i can send you offiline the bigger one
ciao peppe

You mean do I have your email Christian? I don't think that you have given me your email before so, please, PM it to me.

Photo was taken after Battle of the Yellow Sea. Unfortunatelly quality is not good but, if you look closely, you can see cracked armor in the upper right corner of the left front plate. Besides I don't know if it was even possible to change a barrel through turret's gun port. All the photos that I have see show that, when barrels were installed or replaced, turret roof was removed.

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Czesz Darius,

Interesting drawing... As told by the others:

The red one are 4 of the total of 20 x 12pdr (76mm) guns and they are in normal position as they should be (please note, under the visible upper deck lever of both bridges and not visible on drawing are on each 2 further guns, on both bridges!).
The blue one are 6 of the light 47mm guns. Mikasa had here during the war a change of armament in double meaning. In the early stage she had only 8 x 3pdr (47mm) Hotchkiss guns in the mast platforms.
This was increased and changed to be at least 6 x 3pdr (47mm) Hochtkiss guns ==> -2 because losses in battle of Yellow Sea <== and 6 further new, somewhat lighter 2.5pdr (47mm) Hotchkiss guns at Tsushima.

I was still unsure where the places of all the now 12 x 47mm guns are for Tsushima, but the drawings lifted the fog now => 6 on the mast platfoms (I guess 2 on front mast, 4 on aft mast platform) + 6 on the upper bridge level of both bridges as shown on your drawing.

Cheers,
Christian

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The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

I send PM to you Darius.

If such a barrel change is possible through gun port depends at least to the gun itself installed. Often turret roof must be removed, you are right, but as far as I can remember without looking before in the books first, at some of the US Pre-Dreadnoughts it was possible through gun ports, because gun barrel could be removed from the breechlock which stays in the turret ... and I assume this was possible by some other guns too

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Look again at this photo of Mikasa after Battle of the Yellow Sea:


In this photo (which I assume was made at a latter date) there are no hammocks on the bridge and it appears (at least to me) that turret roof is removed.

47mm QF guns:

1 - drawing was posted here http://blog.livedoor.jp/studio120/ I have read a bit more of it (using Google Translate) and, as far as I can make it out, when author talks about "light" RF guns (blue) he means 47mm 2.5 pounders. When he talks about "heavy" RF guns (red) he means 47mm 3 pounders and not 12 pounders.
http://blog.livedoor.jp/studio120/tag/% ... 4%E7%A0%B2

2 - I'm not sure what you mean by "mast platfoms" Christian... There were no mast platforms on which guns could be mounted on Mikasa in 1905. Four 47mm guns (according to the blog from the link - 3 pounders) were mounted midships port and starboard.

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hi Darius,

with the platforms on mast you are right, my silly mistake because I head previously outfit in head as visible on your shown photo with destroyed aft turret.
About turret roof, clearly after Battle of Yellow Sea when this turret was destroyed with 2 hits. You are right, the turret roof is here away, but i'm not sure if it was made for repair and barrel change or if it was due to destruction of turret.

Finally ... the 47mm guns:
If the red one are really 47mm 3pdr guns, well, then they must have replaced 76mm 12pdr guns. As you know, she had 20 of these guns - 12 x in midship (6 on each side) and on each bridge 4 - and the position of the red ones on the drawing are clearly positions of 76mm on bridge sections. This causes now some questions about Darius.
As far as I know, Mikasa was hit 20-30 times during Battle of Yellow Sea and beside the knocked out aft turret out of this, as well hits on funnels (I guess from 6 or 8inch guns caused) and the several times hit masts which disabled radio, she was of course hit on other places. But no where I read something about hits on bridges, particularly not on front bridge with Admiral Togo in place on top / roof of and around pilot house. So why should the stronger 76mm guns there, being replaced by 47mm 3pdr guns after battle of yellow sea? A possible answer could be that some midship 76mm guns were destroyed and would be replaced by these from bridge sections ...
But then we have now the point with the 2.5pdr and 3pdr 47mm guns, where every source tells that 6 of each were on board. The position of the light 6 x 2.5pdr guns are now totally clear thanks to the drawing, but drawing shows only 4 x 3pdr guns. Where are the 2 other one, when mast platforms where they were in origin are for Tsushima away? Maybe they replaced further 76mm guns in midship section? I see no other place left where they could be installed ... and that these 2 further 47mm 3pdr were installed somewhere is on the other hand sure.
But this all makes again the everywhere named total number of 20 x 76mm gun itself doubtful, because when they were in parts replaced with 47mm 3pdr, where are all the 20 x 76mm installed then ? Issue is really strange and makes more questions as answers ...

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Let's deal with 76mm guns first Christian: photographic evidence is always more important than descriptions.

Look at this fragment (starboard side of the main bridge) again:


There is 76mm gun on top of 6 inch gun casamate and there is one on the main bridge CT platform pointing forward. But where is another one supposedly pointing to the side?

And look at this fragment (port side of the aft bridge):


Same story. 76mm gun pointing aft but where is one pointing to the side?

Japanese drawing of damage done to Mikasa during Yellow Sea battle also shows only two 76mm guns per bridge.

So I believe that, up until repairs and modifications after Yellow Sea battle, Mikasa's armament was: 4x305mm guns, 14x152mm guns, 20x76mm guns, 8x47mm 3pdr guns (fighting tops) and 4x47mm 2.5 pdr guns (midships).


Now 47mm guns: if reasearch done by the Japanese blogger is to be believed (and I tend to believe him), Mikasa's armament at Tsushima was identical but 47mm guns were distributed differently:


8x3 pounders (yellow circles) and 4x2.5 ponders (blue circles). So it all seems to match quite nicely...

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hi Darius,

on last phote I can't agree that in center / midships were 47mm guns, because these are clear positions of 76mm on all other photos taken from Mikasa in any time frame showing them. The place of the 6 x 2.5pdr on bridges at pilot house lever are clear as told (2 front bridge, 4 aft bridge), 4 x 3pdr on bridges (2 each bridge) one level below I can agree too, but still 2 missing for me even looking on the photos.
My opinion is now more that armament was still 20 x 76mm, but 4 x 47mm 3pdr and 6 x 47mm 2.5pdr (12inch and 6 inch are clear). However, no matter if you or I are right, it is more and more obviously that records about Mikasa's armament have some clear lacks and errors and has to be corrected at least.

Edit, changed because misstyping.

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Sorry Christian but there IS evidence that 4 midships guns were 47mm and not 76mm:

Mikasa in 1902:

The difference in size between 76mm and 47mm guns is (IMO) obvious.

From official Japanese "as build" drawing:


Official Japanese drawing of Mikasa's damage during YS battle:


Mikasa February 1905:

Admittedly difference in sizes is a bit less clear here.

And (BTW) Shikishima, Hatsuse and Asahi also did have 47mm guns midships.

If you insist that: "clear positions of 76mm on all other photos taken from Mikasa in any time frame showing them" could you show your proof?

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Mmmh ...

pictures I will research again Darius and load up this week.
But I have still some doubts, sorry. Every source I know tells that Mikasa has 20 x 76mm guns, so all sources and no matter which books and links tell wrong at least then? Obviously ... but why? We have 8 76mm in casematts above 152mm gun level (4 each side) + 4 on bridges (2 on each bridge, 1 each side in fron / aft area) + 4 to 8 on midship section between small boats and above these in casemats below. For sure we have 6 x 2.5pdr 47mm in bridges and 4 x 3pdr 47mm on bridges (2 on each bridge next to those 76mm there). Open question is now the placement in center of midship section and how many + which guns there ...
What I miss at your drawing is placement for Tsushima at least, do you have too?

However ... in general modelbuilding of ships is becoming slowly annoying for me. Every damned ship kit I get in fingers cause a bunch of questions / shows that kit has serious errors to correct / unclear things. Taking the Mikasa here and now is a good example of such things. Ok, kit is not new and old, but no matter who is how far right at least with configuration of light guns, the kit is wrong and could not be build from the box with claim to be correct! Also both photo etched sets available have errors, for example the shields in Eduard are wrong!
O man ... you can get tired from such things in modelling when you want to make your kit as most as correct as possible...

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Let's talk about sources Christian... As you know sources, graded by the order of relevance, are: primary, secondary, tertiary etc. The longer the chain the less relevance and if 20 secondary sources disagree with primary than it's too bad for secondary ones. And one other thing: trouble with low level "sources" is that they very often use quotes from another low level source which took this quote from another low level source etc... For example Wiki quotes Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships 1860–1905, I don't know where Chesneau & Kolesnik took their data from (I don't have this book) but I'm sure that they haven't personally researched all the ships in the book. So check where your "all sources and books and links" got their data from. You just might find out the reason why they all agree with each other...
Now, I don't have (for obvious reasons) access to primary sources about Mikasa but I have some very good secondary ones. And those sources tell me that Mikasa's 76mm guns were located in this way: 8 midships above 152mm guns; 2 in bow casemates; 2 in stern casemates; four above 152mm gun casamates, TWO on the main bridge and TWO on the secondary bridge. I have mentioned placement of 47mm guns already so I will not repeat it here but I would advise you to check Studio 120 blog about Mikasa. Since this guy has access to Japanese archives AND tries to verify his findings on the actual ship, he is a secondary source too

As for Tsushima? I have posted fragment of the photo of Mikasa dated February 1905 (which is close enough) and I'm still looking for highier quality photo of Mikasa after Tsushima.

Least but not least: I understand why you feel annoyed Christian but that's the problem with old ships! The older the ship, the more difficult it is to get information about it. It took me (so far) 10 years to research Borodino and I still don't have all the answers! How long you think Eastern Express (or Hasegawa) spent (in time and money) to research their products?

Now some practical advise: research your kits and PE sets thoroughly before you buy it. You know that sites like this have some knowledgeable people who will tell you what's good and what's bad about them. And if you REALLY what to feel better (and if your budget allows) try to get U-Boat Laboratorium resin 1/350 French pre-dread cruiser Dupleix. It is a very nice kit AND you can access French official drawings of this ship!

http://u-boat-laboratorium.com/index.ph ... ix-1-350-2

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hi Darius,

first of all I'm of course very thankfull for your help and shared knowledge ... no doubts about Darius!

However, in short words:
I missed totally the 4 guns in hull at bow and stern to be 76mm too ... that's it why I was sceptic!!!

I will make my Mikasa with 4 x in hull in bow and stern, 8 x 76mm in casemates, 2 x 76mm on front bridge, 2 x 76mm on aft bridge and then 4 further 76mm in midship area above the highest 152mm casemates (those which are on same level as the 76mm in casemates are) = 20 in total.
The 2.5pdr 47mm are clear, Ino further wird necessary. Each 2 x 3pdr 47mm came on front and aft bridge and then we have the position right in center midships left where again 4 x 47mm 3pdr (2 each side) will be installed - end of story!

Next ship I will build are HMS Dreadnought from Zvezda + Pontos Set and here I know where the weaknesses of kit are etc. ... also the then following SMS Markgraff from ICM is clear too about what has to be where changed and made otherway (because at both ships I have enough drawings and photos).

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Sheeesh and I have forgotten those 4 above 152mm casamates near the bridges. So you are right. 20 76mm guns in total BUT as far as 47mm light RF guns on the aft bridge are concerned... Check it our for yourself but, if I understand replays to my "Japanese translation" post correctly, the two guns in front of wheel house might have been there on February 1905 and than they were moved to the wings for Tsushima. So there might have been 2 and not 4 light RF guns on the aft bridge. But, as I have said, I'm not sure about that.

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hi Dariusz,

You mean these on the drawing below (the 2 middle blue one of the total of 4) of aft bridge?



Well,
really to the end of small wings ...? I'm sceptic, because the space to handle the gun is not really much ... but I will research too on some photos

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Not to the ends Christian. The description under two guns in front of wheel house reads: "Febr. 1905 something" the ones under outside guns read: "Sea of Japan Battle something" so I presume that there were only 2 light RF guns on the aft bridge but they were moved between 02.1905 and Tsushima.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken