The Ship Model Forum

Oh! .... wait ... damn it, where was it where I read? Ahrgh! ... It makes now all sense, out of the head and as far as I remember for the moment:

Before battle of Yellow Sea there were 2.5pdr on both mast platform, after battle complete platforms were removed , because mast were hit hard by Russian gun fire. The text at your drawing means at least that these "Ex-Platform guns" were installed there and date when installed. The inner one were in 02/1905, the outer one before battle of Tsushima installed. Point is that only 4 of the 8 guns survived the mast hits, because aft mast platform was smashed to bits at Yellow Sea battle as I read somewhere (where ever this was, damn it ). So the left 4 guns from platforms were installed on both bridges with 2 right and left next to pilot house and 2 in front of wheel house on aft bridge. Before Tsushima further 2 x 2.5pdr (coming from where ever) were installed on aft bridge as shown on drawing left and right to the 2 one still installed in front of wheel house before ... and so we have again the in sources evvery where named 6 x 2.5pdr 47mm guns in sum too + story about them.

So the drawing shows the placement for Tsushima and only 1 point is not yet clear left. How much 47mm 3pdr were installed in center / midship (at high between both funnels) at the level above the 76mm in casemates ... 1 or 2 each side?

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The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

errrr slow down a bit Christian, you are getting some things wrong and some things mixed up
1 - if you look at this photo again:

you will notice that aft mast platform doesn't look "smashed to bits" at all. And 2 RF guns also appear to be undamaged. So, wherever you have read it, it doesn't appear to be correct does it?
Maybe what you read was about Tsushima rather than YS? Mikasa lost upper part of her aft mast there.
Remember also that Mikasa's masts platforms didn't have to be damaged to be removed. After Yellow Sea those platforms were removed from ALL Japanese ships that had them.

2 - up until August 1904 8 guns (2x4) on mast platforms were "heavy" 47mm 3 pounder RF guns, the 4 midships were "light" 47mm 2.5 pounders RF guns.

3 - during the repairs and modifications after Yellow Sea 8 "heavy" 47mm guns were moved to following positions: 2 to main bridge, 2 to aft bridge and 4 to midships (port and starboard) to where 4 "light" 47mm guns were. Two 47mm "light" guns from midships were moved to the main bridge wheel house platform and two to aft bridge wheel house platform:

8x3 pounders (yellow circles) and 4x2.5 ponders (blue circles)

EDIT - Hey Christian! Just stumbled upon something... You like hammocks? How about even more hammocks AND some tarred rope?
Here is a drawing of Mikasa's bridge during Tsushima battle made by a guy who actually was there!

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hi Darius,

about tarod rope I must think about ... not sure if or if not. About hammocks I make in moment some trials if it could be done by my own or if these resin parts from Ishida are necessary or not.

However, about armament it is done now so far on my model. Only the 47mm 2.5pdr I made at least only 4 (2 on each bridge as shown on drawing from you here in thread) and not 6, but at least how you have shown here. Probelm were to make these 47mm guns, I had to make canibalism on my wrong painted Varyag for the 2.5pdr and to make scratch for 4 x 3pdr (in kit are only 4 included, because instructions tells that on 4 places are 76mm ... what is wrong as we know now).

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=149568&p=577167#p577167

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Well done Darius, I knew there would be some evidence somewhere. I am sure there will be photographic evidence too somewhere.

What is the source of this drawing?

Oh, I have found photographic evidence couple of weeks ago It was posted on page 7 of this thread. Here is a clearer version of this photo:


Drawing comes from "Confidential Lecture at War Course College" by commander Kiyokazu Abo, Japanese Naval attache to the UK from Now.1905 to Febr.1908. He served (as gunnery officer I think) on Mikasa throughout Russo-Japanese War.

You can see all his notes here: http://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5131&p=1

BTW - those notes include interesting an bit of info about modification made to Orel's conning tower which, as it has turned out, wasn't very successful...

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

some more information from http://warship-mikasa.blogspot.jp
Mikasa's armament at Tsushima (for IJN Mikasa (Tsushima 1905) fans)
Hello IJN Mikasa fans,
I am happy to know that foreign people who are interested in Mikasa exist.
Although my writing speed is very slow, I will provide information about Mikasa as far as I know.

I consider that Mikasa's armament at Tshushima (1905) was below.






(1), (2) 12 inch gun

(3) 6 inch quick firing gun #1
(4) 6 inch quick firing gun #3
(5) 6 inch quick firing gun #5
(6) 6 inch quick firing gun #7
(7) 6 inch quick firing gun #9
(8) 6 inch quick firing gun #11
(9) 6 inch quick firing gun #13

(10) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #1 (on central pivot mounting, with shield) in crew space.

(11) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #3 (on pedestal mounting, without shield) on fore shelter deck.

(12) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #5 (on pedestal mounting, without shield) on boat deck.

(13) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #7 (on central pivot mounting, with shield) on upper deck.

(14) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #9 (on central pivot mounting, with shield) on upper deck.

(15) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #11 (on central pivot mounting, with shield) on upper deck.

(16) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #13 (on central pivot mounting, with shield) on upper deck.

(17) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #15 (on pedestal mounting, without shield) on boat deck.

(18) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #17 (on pedestal mounting, without shield) on aft shelter deck.

(19) 12 pounder(76 mm, 3 inch) quick firing gun #19 (oncentral pivot mounting, with shield) in admiral's saloon.


(20) 3 pounder(47 mm) Yamanouchi(*1) heavy quick firing gun #1 on fore shelter deck.

(21) 3 pounder(47 mm) Yamanouchi heavy quick firing gun #3 on boat deck.

(22) 3 pounder(47 mm) Yamanouchi heavy quick firing gun #5 on boat deck.

(23) 3 pounder(47 mm) Yamanouchi heavy quick firing gun #7 on aft shelter deck.

(24) 2.5 pounder(47 mm) Yamanouch light quick firing gun #1 (on pedestal mounting) on fore bridge deck.

(25) 2.5 pounder(47 mm) Yamanouch light quick firing gun #3 (on pedestal mounting) on aft bridge deck.

*1 "Masuji Yamanouch" (Imperial Japanese Navy officer (1860-1919)) who improved existing (maybe "Hotchikiss") quick firing gun.

According to the log of Mikasa, on 29th(and 30th), Dec. 1904, eight 47mm Yamanouchi heavy quick firing guns on the fighting tops were removed and relocated to the shelter decks or the boat decks. Previous to this relocation, four 47mm Yamanouchi light guns on the boat decks were relocated to the bridge decks.

(a), (b) Fighting tops were removed after the battle of Yellow Sea (1904).

(c), (d) Officer's conning(?) towers were fitted with on four casemates on upper deck January, 1905.

Posted by Yasaka at 21:52

ciao peppe

You are a diamond peppe! I have managed to work most of it out by myself but English translation is a great help!

Just a quick correction: when Mr Yasaka writes "(c), (d) Officer's conning(?) towers were fitted with on four casemates on upper deck January, 1905" he means "sighting hoods".

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

What caught my attention on that blog post was this:



That seems to refer to the blue/red diagram of the bridges posted earlier.

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De quoi s'agit-il?

Totally great Peppe!

So far I made my Mikasa then correct...

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Sure does Timmy!



Ah, but where is tarred rope Christian? (just kidding)

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Idea that Mikasa had only one (starboard) ladder leading to wheelhouse roof was mentioned by Mr Yasaka in his blog here: http://blog.livedoor.jp/studio120/archi ... 2.html?p=2
As possible proof he uses well known painting of Togo on Mikasa's bridge and a builder's drawing of Mikasa's wheelhouse from a set kept at Japan Center for Asian Historical Records:


I have had a closer look at two photos of Mikasa in 1902 (conveniently showing both sides of the ship) and noticed this:

So it appears that, at least early in her career, Mikasa did indeed had one ladder only.

Among drawings of Mikasa at JCfAHR is also this unusual version of wheelhouse:


I wonder what was the idea behind it...

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Thank you for your kind reply and explanation Mr.Yasaka. I have read French/English language notes and articles about Mikasa preservation effort but had no idea that the drawing of the wheelhouse was a part of this process!

Now, could you please tell me if inboard view drawings of Mikasa from a period up to September 1905 do exist?

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Yes, I meant (4) "GENERAL ARRANGEMENT - SECTIONAL ELEVATION -". I have found quite a few drawings of Mikasa at JACAR (often through Russian forums because I can read and write Russian but not Japanese ) but sectional elevation is a very important part of the set and one that I haven't seen anywhere on the internet.

The "General Arrangement - Sectional Elevation" drawing displayed at Mikasa's Museum at Yokosuka looks similar to the drawings available at JACAR and I was wondering if JACAR has them or not.

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"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Thank you for your reply again Mr. Yasaka



I was wondering about that... From the drawing of the main bridge I would think that JACAR's drawings represent Mikasa after 1905-1908 reconstruction but before 1926.
I have very limited knowledge about this ship after 1905 but my guess would be sometime between 1908-1918. However, looking at the drawing of main bridge again, this
part of the ship changed very little since 1902. If the 1926 drawings were copied from builders drawings (with later changes added) we will probably never know.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Hello Mr. Yasaka
Yes, not many people realize just how much of modern day Mikasa's superstructure is just a mock up.
BTW I have read on one of Japanese sites that it was USSR and not USA which insisted most strongly on Mikasa's destruction. Have you heard anything about that?

This is not meant as a criticism but budget limitations must have been severe because, even taking into consideration only the documents that I'm aware of, better restoration job could have been attempted.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Not really wondering about that, eh?
Tsushima is still today a thorn in meat of Russian Navy.

What I sometimes read and heard from Russian site about is only rediculous and funny. For example, some so called truthers (like all the other truthers of whatever issue being only fairy tellers) spread rumor around, that at Tsushima IJN used a 5th battleship - the Satsuma- and only won because this ship ... and Admiral Togo wasn't on Mikasa, but on Satsuma in fact.
That she was laid down short before Tsushima and commissioned in 1910 is of course for them only a fairy tale of conspiration from Japanese government and bolstered by the UK too ... lol!

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

Christian - Yes, there are all sorts of conspiracy theories about Tsushima and events leading up to it... I have heard on quite a few occasions that Dogger Bank incident (21/22 Oct.1904) was no incident but a provocation and that Japanese (or even British) destroyers were really there.

Mr. Yasaka - I was asking about "General Arrangement - Sectional Elevation" drawings of Mikasa because I'm interested in your corrections to Mikasa's engine room hatch:
Where did you get your information about that from?

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Yep, I read about this incident too. It is a Little bit natural that People search reasons for a defeat they got and in this behavior it is easy to claim that defeat was only because some Kind of conspiracy.

However,

the Details here you take and show are very interesting I must say. for my Mikasa too late and not really important in some of the things, but maybe some time later I build her again.

_________________
The advantage of wisdom is that you can play dumb; conversely, it is more difficult.

I have discovered Mr. Yasaka's blog only when doing some extra research for your model Christian and there were over 2 years of posts to go through. Besides, process of researching those old ships is never really over so, if somebody would want to wait for final results, no model would ever be made

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken

Thank you Mr. Yasaka!

I have just noticed that drawing of Mikasa's damage at the Battle of Yellow Sea show a door leading to casing of engine room hatch.



Now, when you say "shape of forward ventilators of the engine room", by "shape" you mean shape of their bases correct? What is the difference between the 2 variants?

As for the hatch #7... Location right under ship's boat might not have been a best place for it and, if so, I wouldn't be surprised if it was moved at the first opportunity.

_________________
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." H. L. Mencken