USN early 1940s primer paints

[John W.]

I have searched for a good answer on this site before without luck. Excuse the question if asked before and I just missed it or didn't get the right delimiters on my search query.

I am specifically interested in what sequence of preparation coats of primer paint were laid down on a new construction USN warship prior to the final color coats. The specific ship for which I am trying to learn this info is USS HORNET, CV-8. I am modeling the ship at the time of the Doolittle Raid when numerous photos show scuffing of the color coat (5-N) low down on the hull, and forward. The scuffing grows worse over time as documented in many photos, and in black and white photos the color appears to be either white or a very light gray. HORNET appears to have been painted in Ms 12 (graded) with 5-O above 5-S on the hull around the time of her commissioning (Oct / Nov 1941) judging from the many photos of her during that time. She was then painted in Ms 12 Mod around Jan / Feb 1942 with 5-O above 5-N on the hull. The scuffed area seems way too light to be either 5-S or 5-O which would have been under the 5-N after the repaint in early 1942. So, light gray it is!
All was well with the world and the planets fully in alignment until I picked up a copy of Steve Wiper's WP-31 on USS BUCHANAN. On the cover and on pages 32 and 33 - in color - BUCHANAN is shown in the same overall Ms-12 Mod as HORNET (more splotchy, of course) with the same scuffing. The majority of the scuffing shows as a light gray - much lighter than 5-O when seen on the ship's stern on page 33. BUT, on the cover and on page 32 some areas of the scuffing also show a color which looks to me to be close the Zinc Chromate Yellow. Also on page 32, I think I can see areas near the stem that have small blotches of red lead primer, so the color is not red lead.
Here's a similar photo to show the area I'm talking about. The picture is compressed to stay within this website's posting limits so it's not easy to see what I'm talking about in great detail - but it's there. Looking at the uncompressed version, it is much more obvious than here, and there are some more areas where the yellow shows.

BUCHANAN paint 1 zoom2.jpg

I know - different ship, different builder's yard. Roger that. Still, I suspect the same USN directive on painting hulls would apply. I have seen some discussion of Formula 84 used as a primer and I have also seen a reference that 84D is zinc chromate green which is clearly (at least to my eyes) not the color in the photos.
I have theorized that perhaps the light gray is the result of zinc chromate yellow being bleached by salt water. In any event, most of the scuffed area on BUCHANAN is the light gray with only small patches of the yellowish color which I take to be the areas from which the color has most recently peeled.
Can anyone shed light on this subject with relevant documentation or such? I have the scuffed area on HORNET already prepared as white which I will tone down to light gray. I was planning to eyeball in some zinc chromate in some small areas to simulate the same wear shown on BUCHANAN. Would appreciate any further info anyone could offer. Thanks.

[Tracy White]

You want the US Navy Painting & Cementing Guide. I've got partial scans of one at home, but I'm not sure what year. There used to be a copy online, but I can't seem to find it now....

But both Red Lead and azinc chromate type were used.

[John W.]

Tracy -
Thanks for the quick reply. I did find some references to zinc chromate as well - pretty sure it was green in one reference. I remember seeing a reference to the zinc chromate yellow in reference to ships and remember thinking it was odd since I had associated that stuff with aircraft.
I'll try some more Google searches with what you've provided above. Thanks again.

(added somewhat later)
Tracy, you gave me enough to get going again and I found some additional info I think to be some of what I found before on the subject.
By Googling us navy painting guide I think I found the reference you were looking for - an hnsa document on painting: http://hnsa.org/doc/ordpaint/
It references MIL-P-15930 which, with some revisions, is still in force today. The specific primer for ships is: primer, paint, vinyl zinc chromate, formula 120, which is to be sprayed on 'hot' (actual temperature not discussed). MIL-P-15930B, which I found in the document, supersedes -15930A which was dated 1951. (I assume the original spec was the non-suffix letter version.) On the subject of color, it only says to refer to color chips available from Norfolk Navy Yard, Portsmouth, VA.
Jest fer grins, I then searched on 'zinc chromate primer' and found this article which discusses, among other things, the various colors for zinc chromate paints.
http://www.colorserver.net/history/hist ... romate.htm
From what the article says, the yellow color is the color of the actual zinc chromate compound and that the paint will be that color unless a pigment is added or other compounds to enhance the paint's characteristics. For example, if iron oxide is added, the color changes to rusty red.
Cool.

[John Snyder]

The light gray you're seeing is the pre-war #5 Standard Navy Gray. 84-D zinc chromate green primer used on new construction was a fairly dark green (I have a sample here).

[John W.]

John -
Thanks.
I do not believe HORNET was ever painted in prewar Standard Navy Gray. She commissioned in Ms 12 Graded. Recognizing the tricks lighting can play, she does appear in some pictures in drydock while under construction in a color that is not - to my eyes - white or possibly even light gray. Yellow or green? I can't convince myself either way - just doesn't look gray to me. Photos of her there are B&W of course.
Yes, I'm using Colourcoats for the camo colors.

[Rick E Davis]

I wouldn't bet that USS HORNET wasn't painted in pre-WWII Standard Navy Gray ... after launching and while completing prior to commissioning. As late as December 1941 USN GLEAVES class destroyers were being "delivered" in the pre-war colors. The builders were "contracted" to paint them that way and it saved the government time and money to NOT revise the contract to have them repaint the ship. During fitting out, they were painted in the "new camo measures" ... some units in several over a short period during late 1941.

[Tracy White]

By Googling us navy painting guide I think I found the reference you were looking for - an hnsa document on painting: http://hnsa.org/doc/ordpaint/

Nope, not what I was referring to. Different era.

[John W.]

I wouldn't bet that USS HORNET wasn't painted in pre-WWII Standard Navy Gray ... after launching and while completing prior to commissioning. As late as December 1941 USN GLEAVES class destroyers were being "delivered" in the pre-war colors. The builders were "contracted" to paint them that way and it saved the government time and money to NOT revise the contract to have them repaint the ship. During fitting out, they were painted in the "new camo measures" ... some units in several over a short period during late 1941.

Rick -
I wouldn't bet for or against anything without having good information. That's why I post questions here. I have learned to state what I think and always be prepared to change it when I get better info.
- Still have no real answer yet to the yellow paint poking out of the camo on BUCHANAN. I noticed the photo I attached seems to be blocked unless I sign in. Not sure what gives there, but it may mean guests may not see the color picture that led to this post.
I guess the answer will probably come after I commit - in paint - to what I think the answer is. (shrug.)

[Tracy White]

I've seen that yellow elsewhere, I just don't have time right now to either look through the guide or to find you those photos. The best example that comes to mind is a set of photos from NARA 80-GK of one of the Iowa class battleships fitting out (might even be Iowa herself) - I'm sure others know which I'm referring to.

[John W.]

Tracy -
Thanks for the tip. I'll do the digging.

[Tracy White]

Here's the June 1943 version.

[Rick E Davis]

In the few color photos I have seen, yellow primer seemed to have been carried onboard for "touch-up" work. But, as for primer colors during construction or on Aircraft Carriers, I can't speak for the entire USN yards and policy of what to use. HORNET was completed during the immediate pre-WWII era and likely would have followed USN peacetime rules. But, I have run into records for USN destroyers where they tried several different types of paint ... underwater primers mostly ... from different manufacturers and different formulas ... actual colors not mentioned. Underwater top coats came in several varieties. One destroyer file had a "cheat" sheet showing where about six-twelve DIFFERENT paints were applied to the lower hull. The plan was to see how well the paints had performed during the next overhaul drydocking. It was wartime and the USN was trying to expand the number of suppliers. There were eleven builders of the FLETCHER class spread out over the country. Local suppliers were desired over shipping from a single supplier clear across the country. I wouldn't be surprised a lot of different paints were used. All to some sort of spec and/or with waivers issued for limited use.

I guess I would say don't get too hung up on the primer color, the yellow on BUCHANAN could simply be touch-up over a spot that got "damaged" when mooring next to something ... say a refueling barge. At least you have a color photo to go by.

[John W.]

Rick -
Thanks for the additional info. This is a 'detail' sport, but Roger - I'm not trying to get too deeply involved in small details that may or may not be documentable. I am essentially scratchbuilding my 1/350 HORNET so this is small potatoes in the overall picture. But it's still an interesting back story.