What-If Large Naval Gunfire Support Ship

[navydavesof]

Hey, guys!

I am busy on a few projects right now (namely scratch building the super structure to CGN-42) but Tracy White and I have been exchanging ideas about how a large naval gunfire support ship might be configured. He and I have talked back and forth in threads and in PM about the need ranging from a small 5" gun armed ship to a full fledged battleship.

I have fleshed out a concept for a "light NGFS ship" that would be classified with a ship prefix as either "NGFS" Naval Gunfire Ship" or LFS "Littoral Fire support Ship" armed with either Mk45 Mod 4 5"/62caliber guns or Mk71 155mm/60caliber guns. That will be addressed in another thread.

What Tracy and I have talked about and come to a relative consensus on is a large NGFS ship that is more than a modern "cruiser" but less than a real WWII "battleship". He has a particular configuration in mind that he will share in the near future. He has suggested an interesting fit of a San Antonio-class sensor/radar arrangement with heavy weapons and a larger medium sized hull such as the San Antonio-class.

This really revolves around the idea that the SPS-48 radar is used as the main air search radar and is combined with the SPQ-9B early missile warning/GFCS radar to produce a superior radar picture for the ship.

I like what Tracy has to contribute. What I have in mind is based around requirements that the USMC and Naval Special Warfare have stipulated as "effective" fire support and what is required for defeating land-based targets and weaponry. Combat experience has shown that modern employment of 5" ( a single gun per ship) cannot be effective. Dahlgren has designed/configured a weapon system in response to such requirements. Dahlgren has stated that to achieve the goals the US Navy has for naval gunfire it needs to employ guns firing rounds with a minimum diameter of 10". Dahlgren has developed a twin 12" gun turret with existing equipment of 12"/50caliber guns installed in a Des Moines-class heavy cruiser gun turret.

I have a design already underway with a large scale ship, but I would like to know what others would include in such a ship abiding by the following requirements:

- Effective Naval Gunfire Strikes by using both ballistic and precision munitions
- Effective NGFS Naval GunFire Support by using both ballistic and precision munitions
- Effective AAW self defense
- Effective point defense
- Conduct Tomahawk missile strikes
- Engage small coastal defense craft in individual or swarm situations
- Employ at least 2 H-60 family helicopters
- Effective air search/surveillance
- Carry small boats to transport crew, personnel, or teams to and from the shore or target (shore liberty or boarding teams)
- Effective passive defense against suicide boats, mine strikes, or plunging fire from shore batteries or anti-ship missile attacks. (aircraft dropped bombs don't count, because both the aircraft and bombs are easily destroyed in flight.)
- Possibly the center of a strike force

I hope this particular one will be undertaken later this year. In the mean time we will see the completion of the CGN-42, DDH, and DDV8 for the Cold War build.

I look forward to hearing what contributors have to say.

[carr]

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[navydavesof]

Bob,

My man, my man! I can tell you have had it with the Navy! Trust me, I understand. My near-term career has been adversely affected by my interest in bettering the Navy, because my officer in charge does not like my opinions. (I should never have shared them!!!)

One of the problems that the Navy has is that every ship it designs is an attempt to build a multi-purpose, do-everything, win-a-war-single-handed, wonder-machine. While I have no problem with that, in theory, the reality is that it costs a bizillion dollars. ...

...Well, take a look at the requirements list. While not quite a win-a-war-single-handed design, it's a stand-and-take-on-all-comers design, for sure...

...Thus, the ship concept becomes a dedicated fire support ship with minimal self-defense (ESSM and short range guns) and that's all.

Well, that's what this ship does! "Effective AAW self defense" is ESSM in quad packs in Mk41 VLS tubes. "Engage small coastal defense craft in individual or swarm situations" means that it can defend itself against small boats, that's all.

What if the concept were modified to assume that this ship would act as part of a group with the group providing air defense, anti-small boat defense, anti-swarm defense, mine clearing, etc.? Think about it ... There is no reasonable tactical scenario in which this ship would operate totally unsupported so why not take advantage of that support in the design?

The small one with 155mm guns and a single helo hanger is exactly that. This is a big-boy design, greater than 10,000 tones, possibly even built on something as large as a Des Moines-class hull in order to support 12" guns.

You take an amphib size hull (San Antonio or, maybe, an old Austin or Tarawa that we're going to scrap), structurally reinforce it as needed, add your 8/10/12" guns, drop in an 8-cell VLS (32 ESSM), and let it go at that.

A Tarawa-class ship?! Oh, my. That's a lot more than what I have in mind. Not to mention, my idea has an inherent "cool" factor to it, too.

But, we can't afford a single-purpose ship in today's stretched-too-thin Navy!!!! We have to multi-task!!!

Yeah, that is pretty dumb. This large NGFS ship would provide a ship that can defend itself (ESSM) while being able to resupply (2 H-60 family helos) and can get into a fight with the shore...or other ships...(deck and side protection), and be able to have a pretty good air picture (SPS-48 and 1-2 SPQ-9B).

Well, think about what that means. Multi-tasking, aside from the combat requirements, just means showing the flag, squashing pirates, drug interdiction, and various other crap jobs that can be performed by a garbage scow. Any ship can perform those kinds of multi-tasking. Besides, you could build several of these ships for the cost of an LCS.

I don't think the requirements I listed call for all of that, especially in a ship big enough to mount 12" guns, however, it would be a fantastic basing point for special operations forces.

What would be required is a pretty heavy communications suite. In order to really keep in positive communications with adjacent forces (troops on the ground and any surrounding aircraft) the ship needs to be...as one might say...a C4I god.

Instead of a 5 billion dollar wonder-machine, we build a $100M floating gun barge that gets towed into place when needed.

I think my light NGFS with 3 155mm guns would be under $600 million.

Having said the above, this is Dave's WIF and he can design whatever he wants and he knows that I'll contribute whatever I can to his design. I'm just throwing out an alternative since he asked for thoughts.

Thanks, Bob! I would like to see you debate my OIC, but I think he might just yell a bunch. He did not even like it when I suggested I take my unit swimming once a week for physical training! Talk about closed minded!

[carr]

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[carr]

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[navydavesof]

Here's your dedicated Fire Support ship. What's next on the agenda?

well, there you have it!

[GMG4RWF]

This is a big-boy design, greater than 10,000 tones, possibly even built on something as large as a Des Moines-class hull in order to support 12" guns.

That a small Battleship. Pre-Dreadnoughts were generally under that size (that�s why Germany was allowed that for their battleships after WWI), & the Pocket battleships were listed at that size (though they were actually closer to 12�000). Did you see my KB of the Nelson to a modern NGSF platform? (under: "IJN Whif-o-rama - anything old is new again...")

[Guest]

Dahlgren has developed a twin 12" gun turret with existing equipment of 12"/50caliber guns installed in a Des Moines-class heavy cruiser gun turret.

Is there any public information on this concept? A quick search didn't turn up anything and I have been thinking of a modern 12 inch BC design myself.