Calling all IJN Minekaze-class, Kamikaze-class, Mutsuki-class fans

[Dan K]

I doubt her rails were relocated because the reload bay for the forward TT mount remained on the portside alongside #1 funnel, AFAIK. Why do you think the rails were moved?

[Vladi]

Yes, that puzzles me, too. It is just what I see on the pic you posted - marked yellow bellow.

[Dan K]

When I get a chance, I'll try to look for something more definitve. It is a puzzle. I know that the succeeding Mutsukis did have the rails extend forward on the starboard side. Similarity between classes would lead one to believe that it might well be true for the Kamikazes.

Any yet, I don't see any hint of them in this crop of the Yunagi. But, it's colorized, so, I need to go back to the original to see if something was missed.

[Dan K]

The KMM volume has a high rez version of the Yunagi photo. I believe that I can see the ends of the TT trolley rails sticking out on the starboard side.

[Vladi]

Hello Dan, there definitely is something that may be rails, but it seems to be much shorter than the drawing above suggests, prehaps it is not long enough to reach the TTs. If these are the rails that would also mean that the replacement torpedo stowage was on starboard and so all of the rail installation...
Interesting are also the platforms extending from the lower part of the bridge (with canvas covered railing - marked yellow again) - the portside part seems to me to be larger than starboard, and also extending more forward than the drawing above would suggest. What do you think?
How did they handle it in Ship Modelling Special #50 (I am still waiting for my copy to arrive)?

[Dan K]

I doubt that the 01 bridge platform is assymetrical. Haven't gotten my #50 yet. Still in HLJ provate warehouse.

[Vladi]

I am back to this topic after looking into ModelArt Special #50 at last. It features the IJN Yunagi by Junichi Naitou on 4 pages, showing numerous corrections to the base kit (which it says was Midship models but I have not found any evidence they ever produced it - most likely the kit was Pit-Road) INCLUDING torpedo rails relocated to starboard as suggested by the drawing above. Quite obviously there must be much more detailed documentation/drawings of Yunagi available in Japan (and BTW also of IJN Tenryu featured in the same issue by the same author). Mutsuo Sasaki or Dan K, can you perhaps help to find out?

[Dan K]

I'm sure there are general plans available for the class; at the very least, these would mirror those of the Mutsukis.

I have this issue now; it is a nicely detailed build but, I don;t think there is more there than can be gleaned from the usual reference books, particularly the Gran Prix Shuppan DD volume, and pics. IMHO.

Note: this is the PitRoad kit, and, as with all the PitRoad kits for the Minekase/Kamikaze/Mutsuli class, the main guns/shield are overscale. The shields neeed to be thinned out, particularly at the top and bottom, to lower the silhouette.

[Vladi]

That build definitely conforms to the GPS DD picture you posted (Kamikaze bridge as built vs Yunagi 1936), but it is hard to believe for me that the rest of the build would be based on the author's pure fantasy (torpedo rails, spare torpedo stowage, aft deck installation...). Same can be said about his Tenryu build - nicely done and including details that go far behind the obvious bridge modifications but includes different AA guns placement etc. Interesting!
Thanks for the note about guns/shields! Do I understand right these have not been corrected in his build?

[Dan K]

It's not fantasy. All these details are seen in various photos and drawings.

Yes, the guns are not corrected. I tried to find a nice silhouette shot to illustrate; I think this one of Kikuzuki (Mutsuki) works well. Compare the height of the guns and shields relative to the rest of the ship against the Yunagi model.

[Vladi]

Ok, I understand now. I thought you did not believe the rails may have been moved to starboard based on what you wrote:

I doubt her rails were relocated because the reload bay for the forward TT mount remained on the portside alongside #1 funnel, AFAIK. Why do you think the rails were moved?

But now I better understand your later reply:

It is a puzzle. I know that the succeeding Mutsukis did have the rails extend forward on the starboard side. Similarity between classes would lead one to believe that it might well be true for the Kamikazes.

I can also see the difference in gun shield height between the photo and the build.
Now it all makes sense to me, thanks!

[DavidK]

The KMM volume has a high rez version of the Yunagi photo. I believe that I can see the ends of the TT trolley rails sticking out on the starboard side.

Dan

In the Yunagi bridge photo, doesn't that look like two gun directors, one behind the other, wrapped in canvas on top of the bridge (vs. one director and a searchlight in the drawings posted a little earlier in the thread)? It looks like there are two things with arms sticking out on both sides.

DaveK

[Dan K]

Well, when I enlarge the photo and crop it, I think that we may be looking at rolled up lengths of canvas for the railing infront of the searchlight. Makes it look like the arms of a smaller director. I could be wrong. Note the sailor in front of the searchlight & director.

[DavidK]

Well, when I enlarge the photo and crop it, I think that we may be looking at rolled up lengths of canvas for the railing infront of the searchlight. Makes it look like the arms of a smaller director. I could be wrong. Note the sailor in front of the searchlight & director.

I see a single dark square near the right end and near the left end of the canvas in question (which is sort of suggestive of little windows, which got me thinking of another gun director). The canvas looks to me to be set somewhat behind the railing, and doesn't seem to align at the end with the end of the railing (if it was intended to drop down over the railing, why would the canvas extend left (as you look at the picture) further than the left end of the railing. Maybe I'm getting a false sense of perspective.

I can't figure out what I'm seeing through the left-most railing opening at what would be about knee level for the sailor standing in front of the large gun director. I thought it might be something like a support pedestal or tripod, but I can't say for sure (and it might be part of the searchlight that you think is in front of the sailor and behind the canvas). In any case, it's a really sharp photo of lots of details like the positions of the two large binoculars.

[DavidK]

I took the drawing of the two bridges, flipped in horizontally, and copied over the older style director to the location of the canvas item, and then shaded it pink. It's not quite at the same viewing angle as the photograph, so...

[Dan K]

I see what you are referring to. I'm not sure of what I'm seeing, but I do see it.

I don't think it is a gun director; there's a larger one right behind it. I suppose it could be a navigation director but, as would be true for any "director", there's not enough room for it to swing to either side, given the constraints of the "pit" between the railings and the main director. They would not remove the searchlight as it was considered a critical piece of night fighting equipment. It must be some sort of jury rigged "thing" mounted on the searchlight. But, not sure for what or why. FWIW.

[DavidK]

I see what you are referring to. I'm not sure of what I'm seeing, but I do see it.

I don't think it is a gun director; there's a larger one right behind it. I suppose it could be a navigation director but, as would be true for any "director", there's not enough room for it to swing to either side, given the constraints of the "pit" between the railings and the main director. They would not remove the searchlight as it was considered a critical piece of night fighting equipment. It must be some sort of jury rigged "thing" mounted on the searchlight. But, not sure for what or why. FWIW.

I'm inclined to agree with your logic (FWIW). It just makes this part of the photo kind of unusual. Do you think there's any chance that they had just finished mounting the newer model gun director and had not yet removed the older model, so the older model was temporarily sitting by the searchlight waiting to be removed?

[Mike C]

I think there IS room for the forward rangefinder to rotate and it's just an artifice of the telephoto lens that makes it look so cramped. Is it possible that the second rangefinder was for the forward torpedo tubes? I don't see a searchlight in the photo and, to my eyes at least, the smaller rangefinder appears to be sitting on the pedestal where the searchlight used to be located. Is there any other place where that searchlight may have been moved?

Mike

[DavidK]

I think there IS room for the forward rangefinder to rotate and it's just an artifice of the telephoto lens that makes it look so cramped. Is it possible that the second rangefinder was for the forward torpedo tubes? I don't see a searchlight in the photo and, to my eyes at least, the smaller rangefinder appears to be sitting on the pedestal where the searchlight used to be located. Is there any other place where that searchlight may have been moved?

Mike

Mike,
I think if there are two rangefinders, that the forward one could still turn through maybe 150 degrees before it might bump into the base of the aft one going both clockwise and counterclockwise. That might or might not be enough to be useful (it might not make it to full on broadside to either side). If it is farther forward than it looks, then if might be able to rotate through an even larger arc by clearing the base of the aft one. Still, the lens (view window) at the end of the director needs to be unobstructed to focus and get range data, and if it were looking into the base of the aft director, that wouldn't function correctly.
Given the potential operational issues, I agree with Dan that it is probably not a (functioning) director; that is why I suggested it might be a temporary thing like the old director in the process of being replaced (diagrams earlier in the thread show a somewhat fancier director was installed compared to the original one at some point in the ship's history).

[Dan K]

The issues with it being a temporary mount is: a) the new one is already in its proper position, b) the photo was taken long after the refit/upgrade had taken place.

I really don't know what it is or why it's there.

Oops, just found the following but, not sure if this is a Minekaze or Kamikaze class. Out the window with former opinion. Credit unknown. I think I grabbed it offf Ebay at some point