Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans

[Michael Vorrasi]

Please excuse my post if this topic has been covered before, but has anyone attempted to convert a Trumpeter 1/700 CV-8 Hornet kit to CV-5 Yorktown? How many alterations would have to be made?

Many, many alterations will be needed. As someone who is intimate with both ships, it is a conversion I would not look upon lightly. Have you looked into Tom's Modelworks CV-5 resin kit? Much less pain, albeit at a steeper price. They also have CV-6 and a resin correction hull for the Trumpy CV-8 kit. Given that Trumpy's basic hull is totally FUBAR-ed, That is the route to go in 1/700.

[Mikevpd]

Thanks, Mike.

Tom's Modelworks CV-5 is now inbound!

[skrakow1]

Hi there,

just to confirm my own research, is it correct there were no visible changes to the overall configuration/outfit of Yorktown between Coral Sea and Midway (other than the Air Group composition)? I.e. no changes to radar or AA outfit, or any other additions to visible equipment/overall layout?
Would Yorktown still carry all 10 outriggers (6 on port, 4 on starboard) in all of '42?

Thanks for your replies and your help!

Regards from Germany,

Stefan

[Michael Vorrasi]

Hi there,

just to confirm my own research, is it correct there were no visible changes to the overall configuration/outfit of Yorktown between Coral Sea and Midway (other than the Air Group composition)? I.e. no changes to radar or AA outfit, or any other additions to visible equipment/overall layout?
Would Yorktown still carry all 10 outriggers (6 on port, 4 on starboard) in all of '42?

Thanks for your replies and your help!

Regards from Germany,

Stefan

Hi Stefan,

As far as I know, she had no changes to her rig between Coral Sea and Midway. I studied a detailed Hi-Rez shot of her entire port side entering Pearl Harbor (80-G-21931) before Midway and several Midway photos. Her first outrigger is gone (the one that was in front of the fwd. 4 gun .50 Cal battery) to make way for the 5 gun 20MM battery (confirmed in a close-up as well). Also the one aft of the aft 4 gun 50 Cal battery is gone to make way for that 5 gun 20MM battery. The rest look to still be there. On starboard side, Midway photos clearly show both outriggers bracketing the forward 4 gun 50 cal battery still there. They were extended during the battle and she went down that way. I cannot find a good clear shot of the aft starboard side to show if both aft ones were still there. I think the last one may have had to go to allow a 20mm tub that was placed just in front of the boat crane, but the other, in front of the aft 4 gun 50 cal battery might have still been there. So, I can confirm four to port and at least two to starboard were still aboard. During her May 1942 emergency docking, PHNY offered Capt. Buckmaster the upgrade for the starboard side to replace both 4 gun 50 cal. batteries with 20mm batteries to match her sisters, but he declined, not wanting to make such changes just before a big battle where the crew would not have the chance to learn new general quarters drills and routes, as well as learning new weapons. Clipping rooms would also need altering. She would never get her upgrades.

[jabarry]

I always wondered if she got a new coat of deck stain, and/or maybe just markings during the repairs as the markings on the rear of the flight deck look different between the two photos below. The first is at Coral Sea and the second at Midway. It could be the color, angle, lighting... etc that makes the narrower center dashes seem absent in the Coral Sea photo. They were in such a rush during the emergency repairs I don't think they would have bothered. But if there is plenty of manpower around - who knows.

[DavidK]

If the Tamiya instructions call for Navy Blue, then they're incorrect. Yorktown was so busy in 1942 that she never had time to repaint from her original Measure 12 into the updated Ms 12 with 5-N Navy Blue or the blotchy Measure 12 Modified (like Hornet). So, you actually need 5-S Sea Blue and 5-O Ocean Gray with a touch of 5-H Haze Gray.[/quote]

Could someone help with this quote from the Measure 12 description as it pertains to the Yorktown flight deck:
"Wood decks except on submarines and carriers shall be darkened to the color Deck Blue. Deck Blue paint shall be used in lieu of stain for this purpose."
Does this mean Yorktown's flight deck was not Deck Blue?

Dave

[Jon C Ryckert]

I wonder if that quote pertains to Battleships and cruisers. It has always been my understanding that the flight decks on carriers and the wood decks on subs were to be stained and not painted such as on battleships and cruisers. Early in the war, the carriers flight decks were stained Norfolk 250N and during the latter part of the war(1943ish), they started using Flight Deck Stain 21. Hope this was of some help to you.

[Michael Vorrasi]

If the Tamiya instructions call for Navy Blue, then they're incorrect. Yorktown was so busy in 1942 that she never had time to repaint from her original Measure 12 into the updated Ms 12 with 5-N Navy Blue or the blotchy Measure 12 Modified (like Hornet). So, you actually need 5-S Sea Blue and 5-O Ocean Gray with a touch of 5-H Haze Gray.

Could someone help with this quote from the Measure 12 description as it pertains to the Yorktown flight deck:
"Wood decks except on submarines and carriers shall be darkened to the color Deck Blue. Deck Blue paint shall be used in lieu of stain for this purpose."
Does this mean Yorktown's flight deck was not Deck Blue?

Dave

Key words "EXCEPT ON SUBMARINES AND CARRIERS" all decks were PAINTED. Instructions for staining carrier decks were in separate documents, and that passage has caused confusion for many years. All decks were painted with deck blue as opposed to stained. Only carrier decks used blue stain. From fall of 1941 through 1942, carrier decks, including Yorktown's, used Norfolk 250N blue stain. Reason for stain is penetration. Carrier decks took a beating and stain penetrated into the wood, so the color ran deep enough that scuffs and scrapes would not expose raw wood easily, as a painted deck might. Also, their flight deck wood was rougher than the typical holy-stoned teak on a battleship or cruiser. Those dense wood decks would take paint much better, whereas stain might just fail to penetrate and just rub off such a hard dense wood.

[Guest]

"Key words "EXCEPT ON SUBMARINES AND CARRIERS" all decks were PAINTED. Instructions for staining carrier decks were in separate documents, and that passage has caused confusion for many years. All decks were painted with deck blue as opposed to stained. Only carrier decks used blue stain. From fall of 1941 through 1942, carrier decks, including Yorktown's, used Norfolk 250N blue stain. Reason for stain is penetration. Carrier decks took a beating and stain penetrated into the wood, so the color ran deep enough that scuffs and scrapes would not expose raw wood easily, as a painted deck might. Also, their flight deck wood was rougher than the typical holy-stoned teak on a battleship or cruiser. Those dense wood decks would take paint much better, whereas stain might just fail to penetrate and just rub off such a hard dense wood."

Thanks. That's good information. As a modeler, what would one do differently in painting a carrier flight deck (that was stained in real life) versus painting a battleship/cruiser wood deck (that was painted in real life)?

[Tracy White]

In amplification (Navy terminology of the time) of Mike's post, metal decks on Yorktown (catwalks, island, hangar deck level outside of the roller doors) would be painted deck blue. The wood flight deck was stained.

[SeanF]

Key words "EXCEPT ON SUBMARINES AND CARRIERS" all decks were PAINTED. Instructions for staining carrier decks were in separate documents, and that passage has caused confusion for many years. All decks were painted with deck blue as opposed to stained. Only carrier decks used blue stain. From fall of 1941 through 1942, carrier decks, including Yorktown's, used Norfolk 250N blue stain. Reason for stain is penetration. Carrier decks took a beating and stain penetrated into the wood, so the color ran deep enough that scuffs and scrapes would not expose raw wood easily, as a painted deck might. Also, their flight deck wood was rougher than the typical holy-stoned teak on a battleship or cruiser. Those dense wood decks would take paint much better, whereas stain might just fail to penetrate and just rub off such a hard dense wood.

"Penetrate" is key there - eventually you'd want to scrape the paint off the battleship and cruiser decks and go back to holystoning them once the hostilities ended. You can't simply scrub off stain. Carrier decks are constantly getting scuffed, gouged, and stained with oil and other fluids - things that go deep, where holystoning is pretty much pointless. Remember that USN carriers had their decks stained even in the pre-war years (though with mahogany, not blue - nevertheless, darker than the natural wood) Though it does make me wonder how the IJN maintained their carrier decks in bare wood. As I recall, they did all their maintenance and refueling in the hangar and not on-deck, so perhaps there was less of a staining issue?

-Sean F.

[DavidK]

So, I think I understand the full-scale deck blue issue for Yorktown better now. Stained wooden flight deck and painted metal decks. Any thoughts on how to translate that to a color difference (or lack thereof) on a scale model Yorktown where both types of deck are plastic? Could one tell the difference between Deck Blue applied as stain versus Deck Blue applied as paint using the Mark I eyeball from 500-1000 feet away?

[Michael Vorrasi]

So, I think I understand the full-scale deck blue issue for Yorktown better now. Stained wooden flight deck and painted metal decks. Any thoughts on how to translate that to a color difference (or lack thereof) on a scale model Yorktown where both types of deck are plastic? Could one tell the difference between Deck Blue applied as stain versus Deck Blue applied as paint using the Mark I eyeball from 500-1000 feet away?

In theory, both the paint (Deck Blue 20B) and the stain (Norfolk 250N) are supposed to match. In reality, the tonal qualities of each are slightly different due to the degree of shine or lack thereof in each surface. The stain will vary slightly, even from board to board depending on the density and grain of each particular board of wood. Also they weathered a bit different. My approach is to make the painted surfaces a bit darker, just enough that the eye can discern a difference in the shade.

[DavidK]

Thanks.

Do you think a stained wood deck might be either "flatter" or "glossier" than a flat painted metal deck?
I've seen wood stains that are really flat, and some that have more shine to them. I suspect that this Deck Blue is not your typical wood stain, though. I have noticed that adding clear gloss onto a flat paint makes it appear darker (or, vice versa, adding clear flat onto a gloss paint makes it appear lighter).

[Michael Vorrasi]

Thanks.

Do you think a stained wood deck might be either "flatter" or "glossier" than a flat painted metal deck?
I've seen wood stains that are really flat, and some that have more shine to them. I suspect that this Deck Blue is not your typical wood stain, though. I have noticed that adding clear gloss onto a flat paint makes it appear darker (or, vice versa, adding clear flat onto a gloss paint makes it appear lighter).

The stain always looks "flatter"to me,not that the paint is glossy in any way. Just less severely flat than stained wood.

[Dick J]

Don't forget that one of the reasons for staining (rather than painting) the wood deck in the first place was to preserve the "non-skid" properties to keep the aircraft from sliding off the deck. Glossier surfaces tend to be slicker than flat-finished ones. So you wouldn't want a slick, glossy flightdeck would you?

[Aggie]

I have the new Merit International 1/350 Yorktown CV-5 kit sitting in my workshop, if anyone is interested in descriptions, pics, etc.

cheers,
Doug

[TOMLABEL]

I'm looking for additional information on the locations of and number of motor launches/boats and life rafts on Yorktown during the Midway timeframe.

In looking at the pic of Yorktown entering Pearl, I see what looks to be 7 large life rafts (could be more as the pic is cut off) along the starboard side below the island. My question here is are these double stacked large life rafts or single? From the shadow they create on the hull it is hard to tell. In looking at the Yorktown drydock picture of same rafts, it is also hard to discern if double or single stacked.

In addition, there look to be about 4 life rafts attached to the starboard side of the island but I cannot determine if these are medium or large size life rafts.

In the CV5 Pearl Port Amid pic I see 6 large or medium life rafts stacked outside the hangar deck as well as a small launch. From the CV5 Midway pic I also see the large launch outside the port hangar deck. Was there an identical large launch on the starboard side as well?

Then in the CV5 Pearl Port Aft pic I see two sets of small, med, large life rafts bound together both near the flight deck supports. Was there a similar arrangement on the starboard side same location? I also see in this pic a small launch on the aft boat deck. (FYI - also notice the two 20mm mounts on the fantail.)

These are all the rafts/boats that I can see from pics during the Midway time period. Does anyone have any additional information?

Any additional information would be greatly appreciated!!

Kelley

[Jon C Ryckert]

Hi Tom,

These raft dimensions may be of some help to you in determining the size of a raft when comparing plans and pictures. This is information that is found on page 47 of Warship Pictorial #4, USS Texas. I have also seen this same drawing an another Warship Pictorial but this is first that I came upon while searching my collection. Though,it states that these dimensions are approximate.

10 man: 7' x 3'6" x 10"
15 man: 8'6" x 4' x 11"
25 man: 10' x 5'6" x 12"
40 man: 11'6" x 7' x 14"
60 man: 13' x 8'6" x 16"

Here are the dimensions ( in decimal form of inches) for the rafts that I converted to 1/350 scale. You can always round up or down to the nearest 1/8th or 16th of an inch. This may help you if you have a 1/350 drawing of the Yorktown to compare to against where the rafts are located on a picture.

10 man: .274 x .119 x .02857
15 man: .3125 x .137 x .03
25 man: .3428 x .1875 x .034
40 man: .377 x .274 x .039
60 man: .44569 x .274 x .0457


Hope this of some help.
Jon -

[TOMLABEL]

Hi Jon,

Yes, this information will be very helpful indeed! And especially you're scale conversion dimensions!

Thanks!