Calling all Iowa-class (BB-61) fans

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RandyM
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by RandyM »

v.2 coming to life...

This is the forward part of the project: roughly half the length of the entire replaced portion, plus the interface block between the kit hull and the "update." The block fits perfectly into the update, but since I'm not home the fit check into the kit hull will have to wait for later this evening. Also, I'll be able to determine how well the maindeck fits into the replacement pieces.

The aft portion is in the printer now - 37.8 hours later it will be complete. I'm also printing a jig which will fit on the outside of the kit hull and should help mark and cut the piece more accurately... this 3D printing business really does have some applications to our craft.

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Fliger747
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by Fliger747 »

Btw the shank of the anchor is glued inside the completed hawse pipe... Probably a majority of self respecting modelers do this.

T
RandyM
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by RandyM »

On my Boston, the anchor chains wrap around the windlasses and drop down into the chain locker on the inboard end, then thru the hawsepipes to the anchors, which are not attached to the hull at all :)
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BB62vet
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by BB62vet »

RandyM - Kudos!! Your v.2 HRM (Hull Replacement Module) is well underway; what you've shown us so far looks completely doable - your logical approach is paying off. I'm still no. 1 on your production list, right???? Oh, and the color of the finished product - can I assume that the photo is correct? - it looks perfect for haze gray finishing!!

Anchors/Anchor Chains:

Since my model will be for display only, I'm not concerned with any functionality of the anchor chain or anchor. As Chuck stated the hawse holes are a straight thru side to side - in actuality, the hawse PIPE would have curved up and back to the forecastle deck (Hawse Plate) and as Randy stated the anchor chain would be free to travel within the pipe. Perhaps a modeler who checked this out PRIOR to assembly of the two hull pieces could have reamed out the inside of the hawse holes in order to redirect the anchor stock in the proper direction in the first place. I didn't even think about this at the time and since my anchors will be displayed in a somewhat lowered state, I'm not that concerned with all this - however, since my deck is not in place as yet, I will probably do some internal modifying of the hawse hole to correct the direction the chain will assume, etc.

Hank

And now, if I don't get back to assembly of the Christmas tree, the Admiral will be doing some :censored_2: reaming of her own :Tirade:
Last edited by BB62vet on Sat Dec 06, 2014 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fliger747
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by Fliger747 »

An advantage to scratch building as with my 1:192 ship is there are no kit errors to correct and there is not threshold of pain to cross to begin a modification. My chain (which I may replace) comes out of the chain locker (not glued) around the anchor windlass and across the deck, down the hawse pipe to the anchor stock (not glued). Actually the only thing holding the anchor chain on the ship is the four chain stoppers which are fastened at their anchor points as on the ship. Having some ship models over 50 years old it is apparent anything that is fragile will break or get knocked off (we have earthquakes...) as during moving and whatever. Hell for stout is good.

I have seen some waterline models with anchor chain paid out or anchors being hauled out that looked good. My ship as with Hank's is most likely to be displayed in a case on keel blocks as if in drydock. For someone wanting to see an anchor and chain tour de force, Song Gun has carved all the individual links in 1:200 for his Prince of Whales in the scratch section. Amazing when you realize the tiny size!

I suppose we have a lot of departures from reality in making our illusions, which is what a ship model is. Many for the signal halyards, even truly expert modelers often have just a single line to the yard. I haven't gotten to rigging as yet but will at least try to create an illusion of a doubled line returning from a sheath at the yard if not one with a real pulley, tied at the signal rail with an overhand knot. Certainly possible in larger scales, maybe even in 1:192 for a real maniac. Trying to stay away from aftermarket parts as much as I can is it own mania.

For a working anchor a metal one wouldrobably help, a cast lead one might have enough weight to pay out against the considerable scale friction. Not my feature, but as with many things, making something to work like this is an innovative challenge. Being a scratch builder, pretty much enough challenges as it is.

Cheers. Tom
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Navy2000
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by Navy2000 »

Looking for hull plating info so that I can reproduce onto a 1/96 scale model that I am doing of the Wisconsin times two. One will be done as she looked in 1945 and the other as she looked in 1988.

Duane
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BB62vet
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by BB62vet »

Duane wrote:
Looking for hull plating info so that I can reproduce onto a 1/96 scale model that I am doing of the Wisconsin times two. One will be done as she looked in 1945 and the other as she looked in 1988.
You and everyone else!!

Unless you have a copy of the original hull drawings for IOWA class, you wandering the Valley of Doubt when it comes to this subject. I have several photos of NEW JERSEY that shows the forward curved hull plating lines, but any actual dimensions are not available on current sheer elevations of the ships. The drafters of currently available model plans and the booklets of general plans didn't seem to feel this info was important to the modeler (and why would they?).

We do have (on this forum) now fairly accurate dimensioning of the butt plates that are present on all 4 ships thanks to a couple of the members (CliffyB & JamesM - if I'm not mistaken) who surveyed WISCONSIN earlier this fall. Plate lines are a mystery. Perhaps someone reading this post will enlighten us - kind of like an early Christmas present!!

I may attempt to draw up in CAD the side view of the ship and "guesstimate" the curves based on photos and known vertical distances. But this may be a while, other things ahead of this facet.
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by ModelMonkey »

BB62vet wrote: Unless you have a copy of the original hull drawings for IOWA class, you wandering the Valley of Doubt when it comes to this subject. I have several photos of NEW JERSEY that shows the forward curved hull plating lines, but any actual dimensions are not available on current sheer elevations of the ships. The drafters of currently available model plans and the booklets of general plans didn't seem to feel this info was important to the modeler (and why would they?).
Completely concur.

Some of the Booklet of General Plans sections drawings for Wisconsin and Missouri show the positions and heights of each overlapping and underlapping strake at certain frames. Although certainly not enough to develop a drawing showing the strakes in elevation, they would be a great reference to start work and/or check any interpretive work.

The idea would be to take the available section drawing for the selected frames, mark points on your model at each of those frames, then connect the dots to show the path of the strakes. Just a thought.
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bigjimslade
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by bigjimslade »

BB62vet wrote:Duane wrote:
Looking for hull plating info so that I can reproduce onto a 1/96 scale model that I am doing of the Wisconsin times two. One will be done as she looked in 1945 and the other as she looked in 1988.
Unless you have a copy of the original hull drawings for IOWA class, you wandering the Valley of Doubt when it comes to this subject. I have several photos of NEW JERSEY that shows the forward curved hull plating lines, but any actual dimensions are not available on current sheer elevations of the ships. The drafters of currently available model plans and the booklets of general plans didn't seem to feel this info was important to the modeler (and why would they?).
The data is in tabular form. I have never bothered transcribing (other than the top of the sheer strake) it because I have never felt the need to reproduce plating.
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chuck
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by chuck »

ModelMonkey wrote:
BB62vet wrote: Unless you have a copy of the original hull drawings for IOWA class, you wandering the Valley of Doubt when it comes to this subject. I have several photos of NEW JERSEY that shows the forward curved hull plating lines, but any actual dimensions are not available on current sheer elevations of the ships. The drafters of currently available model plans and the booklets of general plans didn't seem to feel this info was important to the modeler (and why would they?).
Completely concur.

Some of the Booklet of General Plans sections drawings for Wisconsin and Missouri show the positions and heights of each overlapping and underlapping strake at certain frames. Although certainly not enough to develop a drawing showing the strakes in elevation, they would be a great reference to start work and/or check any interpretive work.

The idea would be to take the available section drawing for the selected frames, mark points on your model at each of those frames, then connect the dots to show the path of the strakes. Just a thought.

The problem is the plating pattern is not consistent through much of the length of the ship. For example, In the rear quarter of the ship, the plating pattern below waterline is like shingles on a roof, with each strake over lapping the strake below it. Near midship, the underwater plates alternate in overlapping and under lapping strakes. I've been trying to find photos showing where and how the transitions are made. I have also tried, and hitherto failed, to find photos unambiguously illustrating underwater plating pattern near the bow.

This change in plating pattern along the length of the ship is also present above waterline. For example, near the bow, the top two strakes underlaps the strake underneath it, But the third strake, near the waterline, is butt jointed to the forth strake. Then just in front of the 1st turret, the top three strakes change to butt jointed to strake below it. This pattern is reversed near the stern. I took quite a few photos of the Iowa (hopefully missouri is identical) to use to replicate this pattern on my model.
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James M
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by James M »

Here are some pictures of the change in overlap:

Forward (three places):
Image

Aft:
Image

This happens in a lot of places above and below the waterline.

James
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BB62vet
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by BB62vet »

Steve Larsen wrote:
The idea would be to take the available section drawing for the selected frames, mark points on your model at each of those frames, then connect the dots to show the path of the strakes. Just a thought.
Well, damn!! I should have thought of that. I have 3 sets (2 .pdf, 1 paper) of the Booklets of Gen. Plans (BB-62, BB-63, BB-64) that include all that information. My printed copy of 1967-68 NEW JERSEY (of those specific sheets) is rolled up in a tube but should be identical to the ones I have online (BB-63 1950, BB-64 1956). I may just have to look all those over and see if what Steve mentioned has the information needed.

I had originally planned to only worry about the visible horiz. plate lines up forward and also add the eye bolts that were present along these lines. I wasn't concerned with all the other lower plate lines below the waterline and also back aft. But, if I were to take the time to make a drawing, it would stand to reason to do the whole hull from stem to stern, AT LEAST above or adjacent to the waterline.

Geez, why do these things crop up in the middle of everything else :mad_1: - like I need ANOTHER mini-project in the middle of 15 other mini-projects in the construction of this kit :doh_1:.

I think I'll order another Les Paul and play the shipyard blues!!! :cry_3:

But, if the drawings do have enough points of reference for each row of plates, this should be a doable drawing that would aid the modeler.

Oh, and thanks James M for the photos - ALWAYS a big help.

Hank
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Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by ModelMonkey »

chuck wrote:The problem is the plating pattern is not consistent through much of the length of the ship. For example, In the rear quarter of the ship, the plating pattern below waterline is like shingles on a roof, with each strake over lapping the strake below it. Near midship, the underwater plates alternate in overlapping and under lapping strakes. I've been trying to find photos showing where and how the transitions are made.
Chuck, you are absolutely right. My suggestion is just one way to start the project and one method to check position and height in the absence of other, more definitive information. This technique does not solve the problem but will get a modeler started, or check strake positions and height the modeler deduces from photos.

So, as always, study all your sources and whatever photos you can get your hands on because, as Chuck accurately points out, the strake patterns are quite complicated with much nuance.

In an unrelated build, but same problem, I was pulling my hair out trying to identify the strake positions, their correct lay, and their heights, for USS Saratoga CV-3 as the asymmetrical hull appeared in 1944. What I was learning was just how very unique each strake was with lots of complexity. Same problem for deck planking patterns. Complex designs, limited source material, even with the terrific help we get here.

But at some point, we modelers can get enough information to make reasonably educated guesses in the absence of definitive source material. It's then a judgment call when to proceed with the build. As definitive photos and plans become available later, even after I have pushed forward with the build, I am often pleasantly surprised how accurate some of those educated guesses turn out to be.
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Fliger747
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by Fliger747 »

John Haynes fully plated his WWII configuration 1:96 model which is on display at Pearl Harbor in the wardroom of Missouri. Additionally some of the HNSA drawings do show the positioning of the sea chests on the bottom and a view of one of these is available in the Missouri Grounding Report, if stuffed full of kelp and what have you.

Since the plates are fully overlapped the dimension of the seam stagger would be available from the cross sections of the ship since the weight of the plating is given. Ie. 40# plate is 1" thick etc. amazing that the plate patterns for obscure merchant ships is available in many cases! but not for these. In considering plating over the hull some care must be used so as not to over scale the plating as the overall effect is to my eye is very bad. In some areas it may be possible to use the original hull surface, especially on the bottom where mostly every other plate is on top.

In 1:200 nominal scale 1" is only 0.005".

I hope everyone is articulating and tying in their rudders.... Cheers. Tom
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by Fliger747 »

There are some launching photos that at least show the lower bow plating to good effect and several i have seen in drydock showing the aft plating. Not an easy effect to pull off, almost not visible in other than excellent directional light from any distance. The Bismark guys have gotten carried away with hull effects and even the inside ducting of her elaborate sea water chests. Funny that it appears more info is available for these long gone ships? Perhaps we can get Cliffy B over the side with tape measure and scuba gear?

I for one will not be doing the underwater plating, maybe some other ship some other time. For my Alaska CB1 waterline I did the bow plating and the indented (by sea forces) shell plating at the very stern. But that one (in 1:192) has been on hold for a while and awaiting completion of the badly needed BB63...

A real yardbird would know if the frames were stepped at their outside edge to meet the lapping of the plates?

Until recently my ship was set up for RC, but I don't think that is compatible with all the detail I am trying to add, handling wise. The props are shafted and ready for motors, the rudders are linked and attached to a control arm a water tight bulkhead or two and floatation added forward in case of disaster. The final death knell of the idea will come if and when I glue the superstructure down... In that vein, the anchor stocks were glued to the inside of the properly complete and watertight hawse pipes. Wonder how many RC ships have never been sailed?

BTW thanks for all the additional info on the 40 mm. Near where my parents live are two 40 mm Quads (8?) from the CA USS Bremerton.

Cheers: Tom
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by Cliffy B »

The Kagero book on BB-61 has drawings for the ship as built in which the horizontal (but not the vertical) hull plating is shown from port, starboard, bow and stern. Not sure how accurate it is but its something at least. I can send a scan if you want to compare it to photos and any plans you have.

And no I haven't forgotten about the main deck walk around or anchor chain measurements. Keep getting distracted :big_grin:
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chuck
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by chuck »

I have had good luck using spray can tamiya primer and masking tape to achieve a clear but subtle plating overlap effect in 1/350 or 1/200. Mask the lower strake, spray the upper strake in 2-3 passes. Remove the tape after the primer dries completely, and then sand the edge very lightly with a fine emery stick.
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RandyM
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by RandyM »

Replaced v.1 with v.2... spent ~ an hour filing/sanding just to see where I am. Very happy with the results so far: however I think that even with the doubled skin thickness on v.2, I need to add a few frames. So I printed an additional four (two for each section) and will install this week. The issue is that if you press inward with moderate force the ABS plastic deforms a bit - I don't think it would be enough to cause paint to crack, but I'm unwilling to take the chance.

So far I'm extremely happy with the fit of this version. First photo is of the seam between the fore and aft pieces, second is of the overall hull: the areas around the inboard shaft exits and aft 40mm tubs are vastly improved over v.1.

James: it was good to see you yesterday.


http://www.nulspace.com/hobbies/missouri/120714b.jpg

http://www.nulspace.com/hobbies/missouri/120714a.jpg
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BB62vet
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by BB62vet »

RandyM -

The v.2 looks really nice!! I will print out a copy of the overall and compare to the exist. hull tonight. Your attention to detail, such as the need for additional bracing, is really excellent.

Later,

Hank
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Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, Various Lg Scale FC Directors
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
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ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
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chuck
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Re: Calling all USS Iowa class fans

Post by chuck »

Randy:

Looks great. I think the attention to detail is very impressive. Do the holes for inboard propeller shafts go all the way through the hull?
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