On RN WW1 Grey

[John Snyder]

George, et al, the WEM WW1 RN/USN grays/greys are matched to actual samples Ron Smith found at the National Archives. He supplied us with matches, which our paint supplier then accurately matched. Were they special grays/greys? Dunno. All I know is that they are accurate matches to the originals.

[dick]

John, Thank you.

Like George I find myself wondering if what was found was the widely-distributed paint chart of colours to be used for Norman Wilkinson's dazzle schemes which were primarily for merchantmen.

You must have asked Ron for a little more background information on these samples:

How were they described in the file? ie how is it known that they were WW1 RN/USN colours?

Were they real paint samples, or cards or charts?

How faded were the originals and how did Ron decide what was an appropriate unfaded match to them?

What file were they in?

Best wishes.

[John Snyder]

Dick,

Ron does occasionally chime in on these boards. He sent me (and Tracy White) all his files on external hard drives. Unfortunately, mine has died and until I can find someone who can resurrect it and copy the data to my new external, I can't answer your questions firmly. The samples were clearly marked as joint USN/RN, and I don't know that there were any direct connections to Wilkinson's designs, since many of the colors referenced were clearly included on non-WIlkinson, USN camo design sheets. The samples were actual paint brushouts. Because they were stored in dark files, there was no fading. I'm unsure at this juncture whether the samples were watercolors or oil-based. Ron matched them to the Munsell Color Notation System, then used that to mix accurate matches, which he supplied to me. Until Ron steps up, that's all I can tell you.

[Tracy White]

Correction - I got digital copies and John got the paper ones. There's stuff in the paper ones that were not digital, so I don't have EVERYTHING Ron found.

John - I'll e-mail you about getting you a copy of the digital files. I'll also goose Ron a bit about this thread.

One thing to consider & understand is that the records are not summaries - they are correspondence. So, often times you will find a document that will say "in reference to serial 1234, use blue." Of course, said serial isn't there. A lot of times you have to search for enough data to have the context to fully understand one document. So it's very possible that the color chips Ron found would be lacking the context of how they were to be used.

That said, I'll talk with John and see what we can't do.

[awetherhorn]

I've not been in on this from the beginning because I haven't been visiting the site much over the past year.
That said, I looked at some of my old notes and it says there that turret tops were "brunswick green".
At the time, I didn't record a source, so I can't go back to recheck it.
I have been doing a lot of research on WWI Merchant ship camo because the Rhode Island School of Design has an almost complete set of patterns prepared for the USSB. I've been painting my 1/1200-1/1250 models to illustrate as many of these patterns as I can. In some cases, I've scratch built a model in order to show a pattern that was actually carried.
If anyone has information on USN destroyer patterns from that period, especially ones prepared by the RN for the USN, I'd be most grateful to hear about them.

[George Hargreaves]

Hi Awetherhorn,

You might try as a separate topic US WW1 Destroyer Dazzle patterns. I know Ron Smith has quite a few.

As for 'Brunswick Green' this appears to originate with Mal Wright in 'Warship Colour Schemes of World War I' where on the net he stated: "On 'Tiddly ships' the practice of painting the metal areas around the anchor cables in Brunswick green was continued and most turret tops were in dark, flat, Brunswick Green on capital ships." This was a separate paragraph which I believe is out of context. This should apply to Battleships of the Victorian Era rather than to Battleships of the WW1 Era. I find it inconceivable that RN WW1 Captains would allow their ships to be painted in anything other than Admiralty Fleet Orders. Tiddly was not the order-of-the-day in WW1, exact compliance was the only thing understood as normal by the WW1 RN.

Cheers,
George

[Guest]

Thank You George

I had some material from Ron before he was caught up in employer restrictions.
I've also found a few items at the US National Archives.
I know there are a few things at IWM as well.
I even made some comments for their on line items (models) where the spelling of the USN name was incorrect.
But I only have 1 stbd side pattern, without colors, taken from an article in the US Naval Institute Proceedings.
I know there were more made, but haven't been able to locate them.

[George W]

This is where I ended up with my just completed 1/700 Combrig WWI HMS Canada after taking advantage of the kind contributors to this thread and those who answered my questions early in October particularly George H. the originator of this thread.

The hull was originally done with Humbrol H148 but felt it was too dark so I re-airbrushed with a slightly lightened H27 which in the end did not make much of a difference. The teak was done by briefly mixing H72 and H148 so I got various shades of the two colours on the deck. I don�t remember who recommended these two colours but I�m happy with the result so thank you. The weathering was done using my recently acquired (Ship Models from Kits (David Griffith)) and as my first attempt it is well worth developing further, ie Future floor wax as a base and oil colours mixed with distilled turpentine. The water base is water colour paper with acrylic gel and acrylic paint with Future on top which I have already used and is also recommended in the book.

The two supporting vessels are HMS Abs (RN WWI salvage vessel) and a coaster (both from Fine Waterline). The railing and extra PE details came from WEM (in the pictures the railing provided the exaggerated shadows). However Combrig kindly included two sets of their PE. I replaced the 14 inch barrels with brass ones, curiously the barrels were too long for the midship�s position so I split the difference by using a higher elevation and burying more of the barrel in the turret (I tried just the later approach the barrels looked obviously too short so I settled on the combination. Recently someone had the same problem with another kit but I do not know whether the problem is with the ship or the barrels.

Overall it meets the satisfactory level for my first WWI project. I temporarily misplaced the boarding ladder which I will attach at a later date. Not to tempt fate I did not even attempt the cage aerial.
Thanks again
George W

[George Hargreaves]

Happy New Year George W!

Thanks for sharing your work. I hope to see additional shots of your HMS Canada in the main section. Concur that David G's book does inspire the best in folk.

Cheers,
George

[Vlad]

Yes, indeed thank you for sharing George W. What you've mixed looks very good in the end.

I also completed my HMS Tiger and after reading this I decided to take a few snaps as well for colour comparison. What I've settled on is this:

Humbrol 165 - hull and superstructure
Humbrol 123 - dark rectangle on hull and turret tops

Here are two shots of the model at slightly different angles and light conditions. Note also the the above colours are SATIN not Matt, which I personally like the look of.

IMAG0344.jpg

IMAG0345.jpg

Now, the other thing I did is some research into WWI photography. This is to better understand how the grays change when viewed in pictures, and how it is possible for the ships to look so light as in examples given earlier in the thread. The following is based on how WWI era film behaved and the adjustments were made in photoshop before the image was desaturated:

-red and yellow hues darkened - WWI era film under-exposes reds e.g. it was a known "fact" in those days that lips photograph black!
-blue and cyan hues lightened - WWI era film over-exposes blues
-global exposure increase - wide landscape shots of the era were usually over-exposed
-brightness/contrast tweaks - to simulate aging

And the result:

IMAG0345 - Copy.jpg

A surprisingly white-ish ship with a dark panel that really stands out despite not actually being that much darker than the rest! Compare the images of Tiger and Lion posted by George H on Page 1 of this thread. What do you think?

[George W]

Thanks George H and Vlad for your comments. Vlad, your Tiger is very neat and tidy. Your colour research looks interesting and good insights into interpretation. I should take some more photos when I can get some moderate lighting. This is a very good reference and I'm glad to make a small contribution to it.

My next project will be WEM's 1/350 castle class corvette HMS Portchester which I will be doing as HMCS St Thomas.

Best Wishes in 2015,
George

[DougC]

Films of that era was insensitive to red which was why they can use red lights in the processing labs. This type of film is usually referred to as orthochromatic.

Around the late 20s or early 30s, Kodak came out with panchromatic film. This was sensitive to light across the entire spectrum. The film had to be processed in complete darkness.

Other factors that affect the grayness of the ship:

- How the exposure was made. Did the photographer wanted a "normal" image; or to bring out the shadow details? Did he adjust for a dark foreground and a light background; or for the opposite?

- Were filters used? If the clouds stand out from a dark shy, a red filter was probably used. If the water looks dark, a red or orange filter was used.

And this is just for B&W photography. For color, the variables are multiplied several times.

[John Snyder]

Panchromatic black & white film was indeed around that early, but did not really come into general use for still photography until the mid-1930s, according to material I obtained from Eastman Kodak about 20 years ago when I wrote a professional paper on the subject (which, of course, I cannot now find!). Ortho film remained in general use into the 1950s--I shot a load of it as a kid in my 126 camera, and it was still being used by the Navy in the 1960s when I did the Photographer's Mate quals (just for grins, as it wasn't my rating).

[DougC]

Ortho was popular because it allowed home processing without complete darkness (red safe lamp).

Special developing tanks were available to process Pan but they had their problems. The film was wound from the cartridge to a spool withing the tank. Sometimes part of the film would stick to itself on the spool, leaving that area undeveloped. But one would not know until after the tank was opened. Many a shot was ruined.

[508medway]

I haven't been on this forum for ages, so much so that I had to re-register under a new user name as I couldn't remember my old one! A friend pointed out to me that I was quoted on the first post to this topic. So I thought I would attach the more detailed notes I made at the PRO all those years ago.

Also, I have mixed one of the formulae (Talbot) to see if it was similar to the RAN's Storm Grey. No it isn't. It is like a paler version of BS381C 631 Light Grey from which Storm Grey is derived.

Michael Brown

Well I can't attach it as the system says pdfs are not allowed. No idea why but I do everything in pdfs except photos. Anyone wanting a copy, please let me know & I'll email it to them.

[508medway]

I haven't been on this forum for ages, so much so that I had to re-register under a new user name as I couldn't remember my old one! A friend pointed out to me that I was quoted on the first post to this topic. So I thought I would attach the more detailed notes I made at the PRO all those years ago.

Also, I have mixed one of the formulae (Talbot) to see if it was similar to the RAN's Storm Grey. No it isn't. It is like a paler version of BS381C 631 Light Grey from which Storm Grey is derived.

Michael Brown

Well I can't attach it as the system says pdfs are not allowed. No idea why but I do everything in pdfs except photos. Anyone wanting a copy, please let me know & I'll email it to them.

2nd time lucky, I've managed to get my pdfs converted to jpegs. I've also been mixing up the WW1 colours usiing Humbrol paint, so I'll get a photos of them and load them later on.

[TCC]

But George's research implies that the dark panel as seen in 1915 is the original pre-war grey while the rest of the ship is in the new grey ordered as of November 1914. this should then be the same grey as worn at Jutland, just with panel painted out.

I think the pictures can be misleading. The pre-war grey is extremely dark, it appears almost black in some shots. The 1914 to 1916 grey is still dark, certainly dark enough to justify the comments of the German observers at Jutland.

But it is visibly lighter than the pre-war shade. In the 1915 pictures with the dark rectangle I believe the photography of the time exaggerates the contrast, making the surrounding hull look much lighter than it really is. It can be anything from reflectivity of paint to light conditions.

Even in the 1916 pictures there is huge variation in how dark ships look in pictures but they are the same ship in the same paint.

If the historical references give us mixing ratios and that is all we have to go on, is it not safer to assume the pictures can't be relied upon for accurate shade deduction?

I could be wrong of course, but that is the conclusion I came to reading this thread.

I agree that the dark panel may be the remains of the pre-war dark grey.


What tone Von Hase saw? He was looking at sillouetted ships. The photograph of Lion in March 1915 in the 3 tone angular pattern (included above on the 1st page of this thread) shows the background colour of the ship a very light grey and I suggest she stayed like this from the Dogger Bank repairs until wars end... aproximately speaking.

Attached image shows Lion post-Jutland.

Lion - July 1916.jpg

Light-grey ships:

BCF 1.jpg

Light-grey ships (sillouetted):

BCF 2.jpg

[Vlad]

TCC,

Thanks for the pictures, I have seen the first two but not the third, that's a nice one!

I think though you are pointing out the same thing I was trying to get my head around earlier. Yes, the ships look very light in those photos, but I believe this is an illusion due to the photography at the time. I've learnt you can't trust the photos for accurate shade deduction, and I tried to show this with my colour manipulation on the photos of my HMS Tiger model above.

I'm not saying it's impossible that they were a lighter grey, but I think it's very unlikely since we have no orders to prove it and I don't think even Beatty had that much disregard for fleet orders to paint his ships a different colour! The orders issued in 1914 call for battleship hulls to be in the 1:20 grey, and there is no order changing this during the war. So my conclusion from this (at least until further evidence) has to be to accept that the colour George H matched is correct and that the photos (the limitations of technology at the time and the way they aged and faded) are simply tricking our eyes.

[dick]

HMS Lion being repaired in the Tyne, probably at Palmer's Yard, after the Battle of the Dogger Bank by Arthur Heslop from the Tyne and Wear Museum collections.

[George Hargreaves]

Hi Dick,

This reminds me of a Steeleye Span song:-
"One misty moistie morning, when cloudy was the whether,...

So if you open the painting in MS Paint and look at the RGB values they range from 101 to 140 which corresponds to what I called Light Grey to Very Light Grey. This being 1915 in the painting so HMS Lion should be in Grey. The artist has indeed painted what his minds eye saw. A great painting.

From a modeling point of view, do you add White for 'distance effect' or not? Only the modeler can answer this question.

Cheers,
George