Calling all Iowa-class (BB-61) fans

[Fliger747]

Randy:

Very nice set of modifications! I notice that the port side shield differs from the Stbd. Did you find evidence of the rounded corner at the cutout? Careful perusal of the photo above shows this to be a 90 deg cut as you have on the stbd side?

And it goes on and on! Very informative and much more variation even ship to ship right from the start.

Cheers. Tom

[Timmy C]

(I'm not sure that USS IOWA actually stopped at Freetown, but was redirected to Dakar)

Someone on Reddit posted a photo of their mom's uncle's knife - on the sheath was written the destination of the Iowa's FDR duty, and it includes Freetown: http://imgur.com/QMGLOR8

But we don't know whether those locations were written in real time or after the fact, so it's not the best confirmation for one way or another. The fact that they were written out of order would suggest they were written after the events.

[Cliffy B]

Okay, FINALLY got that one measurement I forget about. The height from the teak to the lowest part of the gun tub (port side of the STBD tub) is...

5"

Hope that doesn't goof your build much if any

[RandyM]

Here are both tubs installed and first-coated.

Tom, to answer your question, in the previous photo the stbd tub was pretty much a trial, while the port was built from a template. That stbd shield has been R&R'd with a correct piece.

And now on to the next question. Per the definition of Measure 22 camouflage, the "navy blue band" on the hull is parallel to the waterline and runs from the boot up to the lowest point of the sheer. Haze grey is applied to all vertical surfaces above this line (I'm sure pretty much everyone is familiar with this). BUT... I have several late-war photos/drawings of Iowa and possibly New Jersey in Measure 22, and, in addition to the usual "grey wedge" at the bow, they have the same treatment at the stern. That is, haze grey is applied in a wedge at the stern which pretty much bisects the 40mm gun tubs top and bottom.

However, the only photo I can find of this part of Missouri from this era shows the stern wedge of grey not applied - Navy Blue was run all the way up to the top edge of the hull as well as the top lip of the gun tubs. Does anyone have any actual documentation to support/refute this position?

Thanks,
Randy

[James M]

At the surrender ceremonies she has the blue all the way to top of the shell plating and 40mm gun tubs.

Navsourse photo.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016310c.jpg

The real question is when and where did she paint over the 32/22D camo pattern.

[chuck]

My guess is measure 32/22D was over painted in San francisco in November 1944. She appeared to have wore measure 32/22D on her commissioning in New York on June 11, 1944. She indisputably wore 32/22D on July 23, 1944 while still in New York. Last photo I've seen of her in 32/22D was dated November 22, 1944, after she had gone through the Panama Canal on her way to San Francisco.

A reference I have stated the Iowa was the only battleship of her class to wear patterned camouflage while in pacific theater of action. This implies missouri did not leave San francisco with 32/22D.

As to the wedge of haze gray at the stern, I don't think any of the Iowa class had it after mid 1945. Here is a picture of the Iowa (left) and missouri (right) together while on their way to Japan for the surrender ceremony: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016190.jpg. Here is New Jersey in July 1945: http://navsource.org/archives/01/062/016262t.jpg. Here is Wisconsin in July 1945: http://navsource.org/archives/01/064/016409e.jpg.

Puget sound photos show New Jersey had no wedge aft when she first received ms 22 in May-June 1945. So she probably never had the wedge. Wisconsin definitely had the wedge in 1944 http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016499.jpg, but not in 1945. I can't locate any photos of Iowa or missouri with the wedge.

[Cliffy B]

To further complicate things... If the "stern wedge" is gone, is the "bow wedge" gone as well?

[James M]

For Missouri, bow wedge is there until she goes to Pearl on her way to Navy Day in New York.
At New York her entire hull is blue.

[Cliffy B]

Best I can tell Wisky kept the "bow wedge" until repainted with 5-H.

Here's two shots of her in drydock (bow and stern) in Portsmouth, VA in June of 1946; "bow wedge" only.

http://www.usswisconsin.org/Pictures/19 ... 00007f.jpg
http://www.usswisconsin.org/Pictures/19 ... 00017f.jpg

[bigjimslade]

I am looking for the following information to complete digital modeling of the hull:

1. Measurements of the stern gun tubs:
a. Diameter.
b. Centerline offset
c. Frame
d. Height of the floor
e. Height of the top of the shield.
f. Location of the cutout
g. The position of the point of the cone where the floor is merged with the hull.

2. measurements of the Anchor rests at the bow.

3. Measurements of the opening at the bow (top).

Will trade for other measurements.

[James M]

Here are the actual dimensions of the stern gun tub from the Iowa:
1) Tallest part of the shield = 56" tall
2) The lower part of the shield = 39" tall
3) Distance from the floor to the main deck = 27"
4) Distance from main deck to the tallest part of the shield = 29"
5) Distance from the knuckle to the top of the foundation floor = 15"
6) Diameter of the gun tub = 18'

The passing scuttle opening is 42" tall x 45" wide.

Dimensions from the plan:
Center of gun tub:
Distance from centerline of ship to centerline of gun tub is 14' 9"
Distance forward from AP to centerline of gun tub is 78"

Cone is 9' 9" tall to the knuckle
Knuckle is 52' 3" above baseline.

Shield info from expanded elevation drawing: (Imagine the shield laid out flat in a straight line)
Overall length of shield is 56' 2 5/16"

Step down information:
Start at AP (frame 215)
Start of step down is 83 1/8" aft of AP
Step down is 110 13/16" starting at 56" in height, ending at 39" in height
Lower part of shield is 120" long at 3' 3" in height.
Step up 110 13/16" long starting at 39", ending at 56" in height

There is the step down cut into the shield for the crew to get in and out easier.
Cut out information:
Start of cutout is 8" forward of AP
Cutout is 84" long and has a 6" lip parallel to the main deck




James

[chuck]

I am looking for location and design of the shell reloading hatch for the 16" guns. Trumpeter didn't forget to include the little cantilevered arms with pulley wheels at the end on the side of the roof of the 16" turrets that are used to handled shells when refilling the magazine. But in trumepter's kit, there is no hatch on the deck located anywhere under the the sweep of these pulleys no matter how the turrets are trained. This led me to believe trumpeter did forget to add the shell reloading hatch on the deck.

Since I didn't find any major hatch in overhead drawings of the Iowa class that trumpeter appear to have missed, I will guess the shell reloading hatch is located on the portion of deck under the turret rear overhang when the turrets are trained straight fore and aft.

[Fliger747]

Hatches are located under the turret overhang both port and stbd for turret three and either side f the small main deck structure between turret one and two. As I am far away from home and resources, I believe there may as well be hatches under the overhang of turret one. The hatches are flush with the teak deck and are themselves round, but the frame they fit in is elongated to accomidation the hinge arms. I somewhere have photos of these. Did Pontos provide cutouts in their deck for these?

From memory and subject to error of memory and or description.

[BB62vet]

Chuck/Flinger747:

I have just consulted my Pontos deck .pdf files and if I'm looking at the correct hatches, they DO provide the 16" ammunition scuttles on the main deck. As Tom mentioned, these are elongated circular openings in the deck close to the 16" barbettes and the teak is trimmed at each scuttle consistant with the type of trim throughout.

Note: I don't think I've ever heard of these being called REARMING scuttles, they are THE scuttles for storing the 16" ammo when it is being struck below upon delivery from the ammo barge or replenishment ship. Projectiles are never left on deck for any length of time after receipt; this is usually an "all hands" evolution meaning that all deck force/weapons dept. personnel are involved. I know I never had to participate, except when 5"/38 cal. ammo was being brought aboard. Secondary battery ammo was also an "all hands" evolution since there was so much of it. GMG's were always in charge to make sure the crew did things safely and properly.

Hope this helps,

Hank

[bigjimslade]

Here are the actual dimensions of the stern gun tub from the Iowa:
1) Tallest part of the shield = 56" tall
2) The lower part of the shield = 39" tall
3) Distance from the floor to the main deck = 27"
4) Distance from main deck to the tallest part of the shield = 29"
5) Distance from the knuckle to the top of the foundation floor = 15"
6) Diameter of the gun tub = 18'

There is the step down cut into the shield for the crew to get in and out easier.
It is 84" long (curved) and has a 6" lip off the main deck (wood deck not included).

The passing scuttle opening is 42" tall x 45" wide.

Thanks a lot.

Do you have any details about the taper below the tube and the location of the tubs?

Oddly, few of the plans at NARA even show the tubs in place.

[James M]

Updated the gun tub info above

[bigjimslade]

Updated the gun tub info above

Thanks a bunch!

[BB62vet]

James M -

Thanks! This will help when I get to that part of the build - NEW JERSEY will be similar, but somewhat altered for her '67-'69 configuration.

Cliffy B -

Thanks also for the "field trip" on WISKY to get dimensions.

Hank

[RandyM]

Still beating that dead horse...

I still can't reconcile the aft 40mm tubs to photos and drawings. So I compiled the measurements provided by Cliffy and James, and used them to try to account for variances. Conceptually, I look at the tub and its shield as a stand-alone unit, then "mount" the unit to the hull at the appropriate (x,y,z) coordinates. Finally, since I don't have "builder's dimensions" of this structure, I compare the modeled result with that of the various photos at my disposal.

Here are the dimensions provided by the ePlan book (Missouri) and 1/96th plans from Floating Drydock, and the measurements reported by Cliffy/James. Cells highlighted in yellow are either a) based upon assumptions by me (ie., teak deck thickness), b) based on assumptions by someone else (ie., because the stated dimension could not have been directly measured), or c) calculated from other primary measurements. Question marks mean the corresponding measurement wasn't provided for that ship. Cell(s) highlighted in red are dimensions which are contradictory with themselves - ie., misprints, etc.



Looking at the data, I chose to model Cliffy's numbers. The rationale was no more thought-out than a) both Cliffy and James had three yellow cells, and b) Cliffy had fewer question marks. The result of that model when added to the overall ship is shown below (ignore the shadow caused by the apparent step in the hull where it meets the tail cone - that is caused by work I've been doing on the Trumpeter Hull Upgrade Kit: also ignore the cool lighting - when I started the Solidworks render I didn't realize the sun position was set to 0730, and the lighting came out a bit funky). Also keep in mind that the six-inch gunwale bar is not present on my 3D model (which leads down yet another rabbit hole, as the plans I have do not explicitly call this out, at least not where I have seen it - which calls into question the absolute location of the maindeck with respect to the upper edge of the hull in these same plans).

During all of this review, several items became apparent:

1. There is a knife-edge on the ship (someone very knowledgeable in these things has schooled me that this is actually called a gunwale bar) which appears to be at least six-inches tall in the area around the aft tubs. Photos of the area from outboard the ship can be mis-interpreted since this added height is NOT where the maindeck is.

2. The sheer is not parallel to the baseline in this area - there is a significant upsweep. In fact the "altitude" of the main deck changes by over five inches across the length of the tub. So trying to locate the tub deck WRT the maindeck is meaningless, unless we were to fix a longitudinal position (ie., "when measured at the center of the tub," etc.).

All of which means that unless someone can provide the height of the 40mm tub deck WRT to the baseline OR take very accurate measurements, everything is a best-guess, and even with my original best guess, my current shields are too tall by about four scale inches, and I'm too anal to leave them that way. So it's off to Rev 03 sometime later this week.

[Fliger747]

Randy

The pointer and trainer sight hoods on turret three should possibly be a bit more rounded and the covers for the optics more square than currently. Will see if I have any photos of these.

One would think having the set of plans that was all that was required. Some things are discovered the hard way!

Cheers. Tom