Calling all Iowa-class (BB-61) fans

[BB62vet]

There seems to be a coast-to-coast echo on this thread!!!

[James M]

Yes it does.
But I want to see more photos of your project!!

James

[BB62vet]

JamesM -

Thank you, thank you - I hope to be more regular (not in the clinical sense ) on my photo posting, but as I mentioned a post ago, I currently can only do this from my workshop computer (Dell OptiPlex - loaded) downloaded to flash drive and then to my work computer and posted here during the week. My current build holdup is waiting on 0.3mm drill bits which I need for drilling hand rung holes. The delivery (from Shanghai, no less) is still another 2 weeks away, perhaps. I may try to get some further bow work done while waiting on the bits. I'm also working on the 2nd level superstructure and about ready to start apply Pontos decking from the aft (below the After Mk. 37 FC Director) and working up the empty 40mm tubs, etc).

I do appreciate your interest and also your photo & info sharing - it's a big help!!!

Hank

[el Cid]

They can't possibly be drain holes. Scuppers maybe, but not drain holes.

Cheers,

Keith

[BB62vet]

Scuppers is the proper term - not drain holes. I will take 20 lashes at next C.O.'s mast.

Hank

[RandyM]

So... I think there is general consensus that these are thru-holes (scuppers... thanks Cid) in the tub walls.

I have the freeing ports installed, but there is no hint of these scuppers in any of the plan documents I have. Curiously, neither the G&C Builder's model nor the "Iowa" model shows them, and at 1/48th scale that seems a shame. Maybe they don't really exist, and the photos I have ca 1945 are the result of revisionist history (did I say that out loud?).

[James M]

I'm an Army guy.
Drain holes allow water out, pointy end is the front of the boat and left side is left, right side is right.

James

[BB62vet]

Randy,

Since I'm not at the shop and access to my TFD Plan Book, my guess is that they are NOT shown there, correct?

Currently looking at NavSource - USS NEW JERSEY - Photo USN 1054-43 showing the scuppers on her stern tubs (8 May 1943). Also, NavSource - USS IOWA - Photo F111C204 showing IOWA stern under construction - probably the BEST photo to answer your question.

If they are not shown on plans, perhaps a Class Change Order given to all shipyards to incorporate "As Built" during construction.

Hank

[BB62vet]

James wrote:

I'm an Army guy.
Drain holes allow water out, pointy end is the front of the boat and left side is left, right side is right.

Sgt. Bilko, perhaps???

[Fliger747]

If you are referring to the "overboard discharges" for the aft gun tubs, they were not present at shakedown and were added (bathtub without drain?) later.

T

[BB62vet]

Tom,

Refer to the photos I referenced a couple posts earlier - this is discussing the three rectangular scuppers located on the outboard side of each tub at deck level (inside tub). They are present during construction. Also, NavSource - USS WISCONSIN - USN Photo #81-44-A - clearly shows the scuppers during fitting out prior to commissioning.

Hank

[Fliger747]

I am unfortunately in a hotel in Golden BC (Canada), but there is a similar stern photo from around commissioning which (in my fallible memory)shows a smooth tub. sorry if I am not currently able to find the source.

Cheers: T

[RandyM]

So, just to be as clear as possible:

the maindeck overhead plans I have, which comprise TFD's plan book and 1/96 drawings, show 3x 6x24" casing scuttles in the DECKS of both tubs. There is also something called a "shell chute" called out as being in the 10-o'clock position on the stbd (mirrored port) DECK of the tub. I'm not talking about these features.

None of the overhead views I have call out the scuppers (thru-holes in the shields).

Similarly, none of the profile views I have - either in the Plan Book or the drawings, show these scuppers. They also do not appear in the mysterious drawing James posted (THANK YOU!) a couple weeks ago. Finally, I cannot see them in any of the photos Cliffy took of Wisconsin's present-day tubs.

Regardless, they are very evident in every photo I have of '45-era Iowas.

EDIT: Tom, that would be interesting to see. It may explain why the Builder's model omitted them.

[bigjimslade]

Here are the actual dimensions of the stern gun tub from the Iowa:

Is this a stern view or a right side view? (Can't be left).

I am trying to get the angles of the support correct. It looks roughly like a 50 degree angle from side to the center line from photographs (stern view).

[SebastianP]

RandyM: Thanks for the kind words. I'm using Lightwave 3D, which is primarily designed for visual effects work and animation. It's kind of an anachronism - it was originally written for the Amiga, back when those were still a thing, and the UI hasn't really changed much since so it still has text-labeled buttons and two entirely separate editors and file formats - one for models, and one for scenes. It is also much more permissive with the geometry of the model than many other packages, and allows things like polygons with up to 1024 vertices, that are full of holes etc. It's a bit of a pain to transfer things from it to other software.

For the colors, I'm basically using cheap projection tricks with textures - the gray color is an Ocean Gray texture I made in Paint and then projected as an un-tiled texture 300 meters long and 100 meters tall, centered at y=50 meters, while the red is another un-tiled texture with the same dimensions, only centered at y=-50 meters. Then the boot topping is a projected as a 300 x 1 meter texture centered on y=0 meters. Then I selected all the horizontal surfaces and made a couple of different materials for them, one with a wood texture created from bitmaps I found in a materials collection, and one with just a deck blue texture made the same way as the other solid colors for decks that are painted. I can actually really easily turn this into Ms 22 by adding another texture layer for the blue part of the hull - I just need to make it 300 x 7 meters and center it at y=3.5 meters. (All this stuff is another reason why I'm so reluctant to move on to other software.)

BB62Vet: 'Doh. I forgot to look at Navsource's BB-62 page before posting - excuse me while I go commit Sudoku in shame.

So both the first two ships were built without the main deck 40 mm tubs, and with the catwalk bridge. Very good to know.

The differences that I can remember off hand between the Iowa and New Jersey amount to the baffles on some of the forward platforms, the shape of the Aux Conn, and the flag bridge modifications (viewslits in the conning tower + 20 mm guns on turret 2 in Iowa). Oh, and the bulwark on the bow. Are there any other areas where I need to look extra closely for differences between these two as built?

Also, on a far future note - the reason I'm building this model in the first place is to explore some of modifications that were either planned but never carried out, or just might have been done if the ships had remained in service rather than going into mothballs or reserve. One of the mods I'm really looking forward to doing for the Iowa-class is a Class Improvement Program style mod, with 3-inch/50 twins instead of 40 mm quads. Does anyone have *any* idea which of the 40 mm mounts would have been replaced, and which would have been discarded in the case of a full-on CIP modification? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the bridge and turret mounts would have been deleted first, and possibly the ones in front of turret 1. Anything else?

Finally, feel free to point out if I've made any serious errors - I will try to fix them if I can. That's one of the nice things about digital model building - if I got something wrong, I don't need to buy more materials to fix the problem, nor is cleanup difficult...

[BB62vet]

First - Happy Easter everyone!

Now, to the topics currently being bantered about:

It seems to me that the obvious is being ignored - Actual photos of the IOWAs (all 4) during construction WITH the three scuppers in place on the after 40mm tubs (see prior references to NavSource photos). Can we all agree on this??? Whether or not they are shown on builder's models (which they would NOT be) or plans is at this point immaterial - they are (or were, from WWII until '80's modifications) in place. My opinion, as mentioned before, is that they were construction changes made possibly due to results gleaned from the early experience of the prior NORTH CAROLINA and INDIANA class ships (none of the photos on NavSource show those scuppers on any of those ships).

As for the tub drawing just re-posted by Big Jim Slade - this is a starboard elevation view of the aft tub - consistent with drawings showing the starboard side of the ship. Most drawings of warships project the starboard side and plan view (overhead looking down) of the ship.

SebastionP - the 4 IOWA class ships were built to a class design, but are not identical. Due to wartime shortages, steel production, construction design changes, whatever the case - the superstructures were slightly different from ship to ship. Decide on the ship you wish to model and then research that ship for drawings, photos, etc. - One size does NOT fit all.

One further observation re. builder's models - these are PROJECTED versions of what the designers think the ship could look like and omit any sort of finite details such as doors, portholes, minor deck equipment, etc. So, something as small as overboard discharges, drains, scuttles, etc. would never show up on these models. This would be something only appearing (maybe) in "as built" drawings of the ships after construction - IF those drawings were revised. The Booklet of General Plans which we've all referenced from time to time here would probably NOT have those sort of finite details included. I'm quite surprised that they go into the level of detail that they do - even though none of the hull openings or discharges shown are called out or described.

Lastly, the current IOWA museum ships cannot be relied on for modeling a WWII or Korea era battleship - too many modifications to the superstructure and some hull components (after 40mm tubs for example) have taken place to make them reliable sources of information. For the most part, the only exterior parts of the ship pretty much left alone are the remaining 5"/38 mounts, the 16" turrets, Mk. 37 FC Directors, MK. 13 Optical rangefinders/radar, the main deck forward of Turret 1, and some of the bridge area.

In summery, it's a struggle for me to replicate NEW JERSEY as she was configured in 1967-69 even though I have a vast amount of reference material at hand. There are a couple areas of the ship that I simply can't find photo or drawing verification of that are driving me crazy and my own recollections of the ship from my service during that time don't help either. I know there are drawings out there that could be provided to our forum that would probably answer some of these issues, but so far haven't shown up.

Will be heading back to the workshop later today - and rechecking plans, etc.

[SebastianP]

BB62Vet: Thanks for taking the time to reply even if you think I'm being silly.

I think we're kind of talking at cross purposes, because unlike a lot of modelers in this thread, I'm not looking to build an absolutely correct replica of a single ship. I'm trying to build a basic framework sort of like a model kit where the big pieces are common to all ships of the class, and I can add the unique bits to make each member of the class. My desired level of accuracy is "does it look like an Iowa?" with a side order of "can you tell *which* Iowa it is?"

Because the main thrust of my modeling project isn't actually modeling the *real* ships. It's modeling those ships for which we only have drawings, sometimes only *Spring Style* drawings, with no details whatsoever, so I can bring them to life at a similar level of detail. That's why I'm asking for directions to which areas to look at in particular for differences between members - so I can create similar differences between members of ship classes that were never built.


Edit: I accidentally a not.

[Channell]

Food for thought...

It's easy to take superdetailing/accuracy modifications too far and strip the fun from your project. Even very large ship scales (say 1/72) are too small to capture all the nuances of the real thing and it goes downhill fast from there. In reality, 1/200 scale is REALLY small for some of the details we're discussing here and some things that are technically accurate do not translate well into a scale version.

Anyway, I was caught in that trap (again) with my 1/200 Iowa, fretting about the hull shape. I gave it a month-long break without looking at it and just got back to work last night... now it looks beautiful! Maybe the elves fixed my perceived faults? Naw... I just needed a brain "reset".

Anyway, it's fun to look for/find/share details but it's also important to be discriminating when it comes to which details should/shouldn't appear on your model, and it's OK leave some things out which may detract from your project more than help it out. Just a friendly reminder to "keep it real" as you plan and exececute your build!

[Fliger747]

It would be interesting (maybe not possible) to have a virtual Iowa member and watch it metamorphose from builders trials to today, including changing paint schemes.

As to the small scuppers aft, which are certainly there in the war commissioned ships: Of the many hundreds of current photos I have of Missouri as museum configured I do not have any photos of her posterior from close enough to tell if these are still present or welded over.

Cheers from the wilds of the Canadian Rockies!

Tom

[SebastianP]

Regarding the scuppers, the Iowa had them as built:

26 August, 1942 (under construction) - very visible leakage from the scuppers:

http://navsource.org/archives/01/061/016105f.jpg

July 9 1943 (shakedown/post-shakedown period):

http://navsource.org/archives/01/061/016110.jpg

Missouri still had some them when she went into drydock in 2009:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016301k.jpg

The port tub has been cut open for some purpose or other so I think two of the scuppers in question are defunct due to the plate the holes were in no longer being there, and I can't tell if the third is still there from any of the photos on Navsource, but you can see the stain from the drainage (there's probably a term for that as well) on the starboard side.