Calling all Scharnhorst and Gneisenau fans!

[Haijun watcher]

Hello everybody,

dedicated to the Scharnhorst brave crew and to her commander Kpt zur See Hintze.

Here the Scharnhorst Baltic camouflage with both sides being different.

Bye Antonio

Antonio,

So let me get his straight. Your depiction here is actually fictional and the Scharnhorst never wore this paint scheme?

If it's not fiction, did the Gneisenau ever sport this paint scheme as well?

[Stein Gildberg]

Dan!

Regarding planking of Gneisenau�s bow area � I have to admit that I am quite uncertain here�
Before I �planked� my Gneisenau the way I did, and quite similar to the drawings in the Kagero book, I studied the sources I had available. That includes the book you mentioned � showing everything planked but the outermost tip.

It seems clear to me from good color photos that the area was not planked before the bow was given the new clipper shape.
It is also clear from photos taken in Brest that everything was planked but the tip at that stage in at least one of the two sister ships (it is impossible to tell from what ship the film is taken).

So what happened in between? From div, film-clips it seems that the area between the anchors was not planked in early 1940. The photos below are taken (1) from Youtube, Schlachshiff in Fahrt at 11:16 min. The other (2) is from Mr Asmussens site
http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/gneisen ... ials2.html
showing the bow area in Jan 1940.

It seems to me that the area between the anchors is not planked, but as I said � I am not sure � it�s simply my interpretation of the pictures.
So, we know that the area was planked in Brest, (at least in one of the two sisters), but if it is Gneisenau shown in the film-clips: when did it happen? Could be after the torpedo hit in 1940 and the following repair or it could be later, during the time in Brest when a lot of rebuilding and modifications were undertaken. Or could it be that it never ever was planked in Gneisenau? Remember- Scharnhorst 's bow was made with a provision for a bow anchor and had double planking all the way up to the tip of the bow. Gneisenau never had any bow anchor and in such respect did not have a need for planking/double planking to protect the plating from wear and tear from anchor chains.

If you have pictures proving me wrong, I�ll be pleased to change my opinion!


WEM K�nigsberg 1:350? Yes, I know about it. I have already built a K�nigsberg 1:400 from HP-models, but I�m absolutely interested in the new one in 1:350.
Think I will wait till I see some qualified review before I buy. At such a price the model should better be good!! And then we don�t have to discuss planking since the decks in this ship had no planking at all (the HP-model has planked decks�).

Stein

[Dan Banks]

Thanks for your input, the more I thought about it the more it made sense that if it was planked, it was done after the hard winter of 39-40, and during a time of refit, which did not take place until after the damage from Renown, or after the torpedo hit, if at all. I contacted John @ WEM about the linoleum decks of Koenigsburg, and he confirmed the hull would be cast this way.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Hello everybody,

@ CCGSailor,

both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau wear the so called Baltic camo scheme.

You can find their schemes on this link :

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1221

Bye Antonio

[Haijun watcher]

Has anyone on this board ever visited the real Gneisenau's surviving turret "Caesar" preserved in Norway? Is it open to the public?

I suppose visiting it would be a must for any battleship/battlecruiser enthusiast.

Also, were the ship's other turrets used as shore batteries in Norway as well? Or in other countries?

[Guest]

I think the area in front of the anchors was not planked during the Norwegian campaign due to this image

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... h83982.jpg

This is of course Gneisenau, not Scharnhorst. The anchor chains and achors are absent, which makes me think this was taken around the time of Gneisenau's return from Norway following the torpedo hit.

Forward of the anchor cluse, there are transverse bands. These are also visible in pre-war (but post bow refit film footage) of Gneisenau which shows this area unplanked. So it would appear to me that this area remained unchanged.

It is also clear from photos taken in Brest that everything was planked but the tip at that stage in at least one of the two sister ships (it is impossible to tell from what ship the film is taken).

What photos taken in Brest are you referring to?

[Redbandit]

Yes the turret that is preserved and is open for the public, though seasonably in summer i believe. great turret, largest i have ever seen. can be recommended. located in Trondheim.

Another location for one of the turrets was also placed at fjell festning (translated roughly = mountain fort) outside Bergen, but was removed some years after the war and scrapped. open as museum with the pillboxes,bunkers and AA positions, very heavily fortified i might add. built a cafe on top of the ''barbette'' if you might call i that. with glass floor, that you can see the entire shaft down

the secondary armament type 15 cm SK C/28, used on Bismarck class, Scharnhorst class and Deutscland class, were used extensively as coastal guns during the construction of the atlantic wall. 111 pieces in total. Used in France, Belgium,Netherlands,Finland,Norway and Denmark, many are still around.

[Haijun watcher]

Hi all,

In a search for reviews on Heller's 1/400 Gneisenau, I didn't have much luck. I only found a past build thread by Paul Helfrich at this other thread.

He mentions at the thread that one major flaw in the Heller kit the "C" turret being too far astern.

Would anyone here be willing to share what are the other major flaws in the Heller Gneisenau kit?

Our reviews section doesn't have any reviews on the Heller 1/400 kits on either of the two sisters.

[Peter H]

Hi guys

I like many others would have seen the recent post from Dragon re their new 1/350 1941 Scharnhorst I think some may have thought the hull was new 1 piece, have added a pic (hopefully) that looks like hull is the original upper & lower half. I really have to wonder why Dragon did not go with a few mods and bring out this as the Gneisenau ?

[Olaf Held]

I really have to wonder why Dragon did not go with a few mods and bring out this as the Gneisenau ?

True, since the 1941 SH is not THAT different to the 1943 SH. Just leave out the torpedo tubes, a few Vierlings, swap the FuMOs to earlier versions (leave out the aft one) and bring back the rangefinder to turret A. Maybe re-open the Admiral's bridge, but I have to look this one up, and it would definately need some details added there...

Happy modelling ~ Olaf!

[Haijun watcher]

Gents,

Here's another question, could one use the Wood Hunter wood deck meant for Tamiya Scharnhorst for a Tamiya Gneisenau kit?

I assume they're identical to a point, though there might be differences in the small details on the deck fittings. Unless one Tamiya kit is just a re-boxed version of the other?

I'm asking because an Ebay listing for the Pontos wood deck for the Scharnhorst is cheaper than the one for the Gneisenau...around 15 dollars cheaper.

Is the higher cost Gneisenau wood deck worth it?

[Guest]

What evidence is there that Gneisenau's 105mm deck was planked, as shown in Asmussen's "German naval camouflage 1939-41"? Everything I have seen indicates, or shows, it to have the same anti skid metal deck that was there pre-war. This photo was taken in 1941 and I think it indicates the presence of the anti skid deck below the feet of the lookout.

http://www.asisbiz.com/Battles/Operatio ... lin-02.jpg


Photos like this one (but better quality) seem to indicate planking, but it is taken too far away to be sure. The anti skid pattern could also look like this from a distance.

http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/gneisen ... rest06.jpg

[Charles Landrum]

I am underway on a build of the Scharnhorst April 1940 just before she sortied from Wilhelmshaven. So I have added the MES belts and removed the aft catapult and the "shifting" crane on the aft deck house. I have the wood hunter deck, which is amazingly thin and beautifully detailed natural deck. Studying all the photos I can find, on line, in the various books I have collected and the online videos of Operation Juno, and it sure looks like the decks were painted. In comparison to prewar pictures, where you can see the variation in the natural teak, the decks starting on late 1939 appear dark and uniform, and the Swastikas come and go. Even more curious is a picture of the forecastle in Wilhelshaven, January 1940 of page 60 of the Collekchiy Book on the Scharnhorst. In this image the deck appears to be Dunklegrau with a light colored border 2m wide along the deck. I can't find a online version of this image to link to.

Thoughts?

[Guest]

Could it be a wet deck?

[Rob-UK]

I just watched that 'Schlachtschiffe in Fahrt' video - brilliant, recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it. Anyone with any interest in the Kriegsmarine and particularly these vessels - watch this with the sound up, that is 20 minutes on board the Scharnhorst class, time well spent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUJDNNfUrbY

[Thegreenmachine]

Hello,

this is my first time here on ModelWahrships.com, so I hope I'm not wrong with my questions here...

I've been modelling for over 20 years and after doing lots of 1/35 vehicles, I decided try something new: Naval modelling!
Now, I always was a huge fan of the Scharnhorst and ever since DML came out with their 1/350 kit, I wanted to do this one. I finally managed to get the newer, DML 1036 kit, depicting the Scharnhorst in 1940/41, although I like her appearance with the closed admiral's bridge after 1942 more. Anyway...

I decided to built my DML Scharnhorst as a vessel at the end of Operation Berlin in early 1941. I've obtained several printed sources but still, some answers are eluding me. Maybe you guys can help me here.

Did the Scharnhorst wear it's badge on the bow during the Operation Berlin? The Troica book (page 64) shows one unclear pic showing Scharnhorst in a port (caption says Brest), with the badge on the bow and the hull very very heavily weathered and rusty. So far, this state of condition on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau is only showed after their long Atlantic operation. The superstructures do not wear any camouflage, the turret A has its rangefinders in place and the admirals bridge is still open. Also there is camouflage netting over turret A.

What colors were the turrets tops at the end of Operation Berlin. Pictures and captions are not clear on this. I'd say the color is darker than the usual superstructure paint, so propably not yellow. Could be red, but caption says "blue gray". Any idea about this?

When was the single Flak-Vierling installed behind the funnel? Before the Operation began or after its end at Brest? And what about the torpedoes?

Also some modeller-oriented questions, maybe some of you can help me here:

I've got the Flyhawk Super Detail Set, but it just looks crazy. I cannot believe I will need (or I'm able to) use half of this set. Some parts just seem to be too thin (like Flak barrels). Is the Flyhawk set really the ultimate thing to go or are other detail set, such as the one from MK1 more "user friendly" and just better?

Also, I noted there are several wooden decks available for the 1943 kit, but only one for the 1941 version. What are the differences? And which is the better wooden deck? Pontos? Artworx? Hunter? Shipyard?

Thanks in Advance for your help!

[Charles Landrum]

I think I can help. I am building Scharnhorst in the April 1940 configuration and there was not much difference between then and early 1941. I have most of the references available. For Operation Berlin her turret tops were yellow, both the main turrets and the 150mm turrets. Yellow appears dark in some old film. Red was only used in the Baltic. As the operation wore on her hull paint faded and her Baltic recognition stripes became visible. She had the swastikas on her forecastle and quarterdeck. These were recognition markings for when the ship was operating near the coast, to prevent the Luftwaffe from bombing the ships. As I understand the turrets tops were painted Dunklegrau (dark gray) once out in open waters. Also the Swastikas were covered or painted over. Both the bow shield and the stern eagle were gone, as were the name boards. They could be bolted back in place. There were no torpedo tubes or Flakverling for OP Berlin.

The Dragon 1941 kit is great - very detailed, but the instructions are terrible with errors in many places. Plus some of the assembly sequences are missing, but available on the 1943 instructions. I found the 1943 instructions on line and printed it out. I also found a build on line were the modeler annotated the errors. The Dragon kit is not 1941, but rather late 1939/early 1940. Here is what you will need to change:
- Add the MES Loop/degaussing belt it was added in late 1940. On the site, Antonio Bonomi claims it was in early 1940, but the photographic evidence indicated late 1940. It was present for OP Berlin. I mistakenly added it, using .040 half round styrene rod
- Do not put the catapult on Turret C, it was removed in early 1940, as was the small crane (Sprue T, Assembly N) on the port deckhouse just forward
- Turret Bruno (Assembly K) should have base ring A5 not A9, or the turret will not superfire Anton.
- Add the other Sprue T parts provided by Dragon.
- The FUMO radar was present on the forward director, the parts are present but no instruction sequence - use the 1943 instructions
- The life rafts lined the railings on either side of the hangar
- The hawse pipes need to be built up on the hull
- Do not add the forward davits or cutters, as provided, they were gone in late 1939
- She carried 3 Arados, but you only need one for the catapult, unless you open the hangar.

I am using the White Ensign PE set and the Woodhunter deck. I chose Woodhunter because it is very thin and allows the fittings to fit without much compsensation. It fits well and so far has remained stuck in place. I sealed it with flat lacquer. The deck is designed for the 1943 version so the upper decks will not fits parts T6 or T12 - so I painted them. Woodhunter provides extra PE, which I found hard to fold - and the instructions confusing - use the kits parts and add PE detail if you want to.

I hope this helps, good luck with the project - instructions aside, it is a very nice kit.

Charles

[Guest]

The breakwater forward of turret A should be lower in 1941, not done in the kit.

The top platform on the forward superstructure should also be a different shape form the 1943 version. It is shown as it should be in the instructions, but the photos from the review show the 1943 version? Either Dragon missed this or the wrong photo was used in the review.

The hawse cluse ring is missing and the anchors should be resting on a flat surface, not a bowl.

I believe the breakwater just aft of turret B only went round the AA gun, not extending to the edge of the deck.

[Charles Landrum]

The top platform is different in 1941 Edition. Unfortunately there are no clear pictures of the Admirals Bridge before the modification to know where all of the equipment should be.

Most of the configuration issues can be addressed with the parts available in the 1941 boxing. it is hard to pin down when the breakwaters aft of Bruno and amidships were added. Non of the pictures that I have seen, show these areas clearly.

Still, it is a model loaded with detail.

Charles

[Guest]

Thank you for your answers. Indeed, the 1941 kit looks really good, even with the errors mentioned. Nethertheless, I managed to obtain the 1943 kit as well, so I will check each instruction for errors.

As for the Scharnhorst 1941 appearnce during Operation Berlin: The turret tops would have been yellow at the beginning and at the end, as part of the aerial recognition markings (together with the swastikas on deck). During the cruise in the Atlantic, the turret tops were overpainted dark grey and the swastikas overpainted (propably with the same dark grey, one can not be too choosy during the operation). I think I'll go for this appearance, with a heavily weathered hull and superstructures from the weeks at sea.

Any idea whether the crest could have been added while staying in Brest? Or maybe the picture in the Trojca book shows Scharnhorst not in Brest but somewhere else before...curious...