Calling all New Orleans-class (CA-32) fans

[Angeliccypher]

I believe there were some retrofit during 41 for some of them. What time frame in 41 are you thinking?

[Dick J]

Most had received splinter screens and either 3" or 1.1" gun mounts some time in 1941. New Orleans underwent a quick refit at Mare Island that ended in Feb '42. That was when she received her first 20MM and radar. San Francisco also underwent a Mare Island refit that ended in May of '42, which was when she received her 20MM and radar. I am not sure when Minneapolis received hers, but reports filed from Pearl Harbor shipyard suggest they were installing the 20MM some time in March of '42. Astoria didn't receive any 20MM until 10 were installed at Pearl between Coral Sea and Midway. Her final two were added at Pearl, along with Mk-3 radar for the main gun directors, right after Midway. Her SC air search radar was in place before Coral Sea, but it had not been installed prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. After the 20MM were added, Astoria, Minneapolis and San Francisco were very similar with only small differences (aside from the main turrets on San Francisco). Each had a small rangefinder on the rear bulkhead of the hangar structure, with the one on San Francisco being at the level of the hangar roof, Astoria's being a bit higher, and that on Minneapolis being lower. There were also minor variations in the splinter screens at the back of the bridge. New Orleans had a slightly different layout of 20MM guns and had no rangefinder on the after side of the hangar. She also had significant differences in the bridge structure. By mid 1942, all four were painted in the Navy Blue variation of MS-11, later codified as MS-21.

[ArizonaBB39]

Thanks for the info Dick. The time frame I'm mainly looking to portray is December 1941. I'm assuming the Trumpeter kits must be of the ships right after their refits. I'll keep looking for info myself, but if anyone else had anything to add to the excellent list Dick provided I'd appreciate it

[MatthewB]

From everything I have been able to tell, the ships are supposed to be of right after their 1942 re-fits.

Although there are some changes to the New Orleans (and I think Minneapolis) Fantail tubs that they got after Santa Cruz or Coral Sea (I would need to go back through the thread, which is hard to do on my iPad), where the New Orleans, at least, got a pair of Quad 40mms on her Fantail (I could swear that the Minneapolis did too).

MB

[Frank Fowler]

I received Steve Wiper's very nice new book on the Yorktown yesterday, Warship Pictorial 44. It contains many detailed photos of the Yorktown. However, like many photos of primary subjects there are sometimes other ships in the photo that are overlooked. This new book contains one of these on page 64, the upper photo. The photo contains a good shot of Vincennes passing between the camera and damaged Yorktown. I don't recall ever seeing this photo and if I have I did not note the detail of Vincennes.

One of the things that has never been cleared up in this thread for Vincennes is the number and location of 20 mm guns. The plans for the ship dated 1942 available from Floating Drydock shows twelve (12) 20 mm guns, two (2) on the 01 level either side aft of the number two 8" turret, four (4) on the platform around the old conning tower in the forward superstructure, two (2) on the hanger deck roof, two (2) on the platform on the aft superstructure, and two (2) on the main deck between the number 3 8" turret and the 1.1" gun tubs.

Available photos I have seen have allowed ten (10) of these to be confirmed. The two that presented a problem verifying were the two on the main deck aft of the number 3 8" turret. The plans show them, but they could not be seen in any available photos. I think this photo shows the tubs present between the turret and 1.1" tubs. The details in this area of the photo stand out very well because they are highlighted on the background of the Sims class DD between the Vincennes and Yorktown. I would like to get others' opinions after some of you are able to review the photo.

If I am correct in what I think I see it would verify that Vincennes had these two 20 mm in this location at Midway. The question would become did she have them later in this location at the time of loss since photos after Midway aren't clear? I would think that these two guns would suffer blast damage from the 8' guns, but there are many cases where AA guns were placed close to the main guns even on the BBs.

Hope some of you get to look this photo over and chime in.

[Dick J]

I am convinced that Vincennes did not have any 20MM aft of turret 3. This is based on several other photos that, while they show objects on the deck in that area, clearly show a mostly bare quarterdeck forward of the quad 1.1's. The visible objects are not 20MM. Most clear is one that I got from Rick Davis, 80-G-10117. It is part of the series taken during the July 9, '42 maneuvers off Hawaii. The following shot is a better known one from the same series: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/044/0404402.jpg 80-G-10117 is also from forward, but is a bit further over to the starboard side giving a somewhat better view of the deck. I've got another view of the port side from Sean Hert that, while not quite as clear, does not indicate any 20MM on the after deck. However, 80-G-10117 does suggest that there could be 4 20MM on the raised platform around the after directors, but there are too many crewmen in the area to absolutely confirm that. Perhaps Rick could post the shot, or at least a crop of the quarterdeck area.

[MatthewB]

Also... I thought most of these had 4 20mm Oerlikon guns on top of the hangar, not two.

They also had 2 - 4 on the platform behind the aft conning station.

In the Warship Pictorial Book of the New Orleans-class, it looks like the Vincennes had 6 20mm guns on her forward superstructure.

Two just aft and to P/S of the #2 Turret.

Two just P/S of the Conning Tower on the bridge.

Two on the platform in front of the radar and Director.

If the aft end of the ship is the same as the others in the class (as far as I know), then it would have 8 20mm guns on the top of the Hangar and Platform off the rear of the aft conning station, for a total of 14-20mm guns.

But I can find no images that show the Vincennes' Aft platforms during 1942.

The Quincy (Closest sister to the Vincennes), only had two 20mm AA guns, on the Aft platform.

So that would account for the "12" 20mm Oerlikons it is said to have had.

MB

[Dick J]

Matthew,

If you look back through this thread, I used to believe that Quincy and Vincennes had identical 20MM layouts, but later photos showed that that simply isn't the case. They are the same forward, but not aft. Forward, neither had 20MM above the pilothouse. The 6 20MM were located as follows: 1 each forward of the foremost 5" mounts, and 4 on the gallery aft of turret 2 around where the conning tower had been. The conning tower itself had been removed and replaced by a clipping room for the 20MM guns. However, Quincy's 20MM gallery was 1/2 level higher than Vinnie's. Quincy retained the pre-war "birdbath" above the pilothouse for her rangefinder. CA's 32, 34, 36, & 38 all had 20MM above the pilothouse, but only after the birdbath had been replaced by different structure. CA-32 deleted the rangefinder at that time but the other 3 retained theirs for a while. In the 1943 refits, the rangefinder was replaced by the full open bridge. CA-37 was unique in replacing her rangefinder and birdbath with a pair of 20MM only to have both reinstalled when she received the 20MM gallery around the conning tower level. She too had her conning tower replaced with a clipping room. The rangefinder finally was deleted when she had her open bridge installed. In each case where 20MM were mounted above the pilothouse, the platform projected out forward of the pilothouse itself. Vincennes had a rudimentary open bridge in that location, which did not project out from the pilothouse, and so did not have room there for 20MM.

Aft, Quincy had 4 20MM atop the hangar, 1 each fore and aft of the cranes. She had the last pair of 20MM on the platform around her after directors. When I finally got high rez photos of Vincennes, it became obvious that she only had 2 20MM on the hangar roof, aft of the cranes. The deck forward of the cranes is bare. The 80-G-10117 photo I referenced is the one on page 56 of Warship Pictorial #7 on the New Orleans class. You can see that there are no 20MM forward of the cranes. You can also see that there are none on the quarterdeck forward of the quad 1.1's. Compared to Quincy, the platform around the after directors is unusually wide for only two 20MM. That required a lot of structural support to hang the guns out that far, and there is no reason to do so if those were the only two 20MM on that level. If, however, there were 4 guns there, two could be in the more conventional inboard locations with the other two outboard of them. There is sufficient space for that and some of the other photos I have suggest that this might be the case, but none of them are clear enough to clinch it. Quincy and New Orleans each had only two at that level, and their platforms were significantly smaller. So they show that Vinnie's platform design was pointless for only two guns. My search for clearer photos continues.

[MatthewB]

Yes, I can see the forward guns more clearly in that image (DRRRR I just had to turn the page).

Man!

This really complicates things, as I am just now beginning to get how really badly designed many of the kits for this class really are.

MB

[Dick J]

Don't overlook the fact that the bridges on both the Quincy and Vincennes kits need to be raised up a bit. If you park them next to San Francisco or Astoria, the pilothouses should be the same height. Quincy's and Vinnie's bridges are a bit squashed down between the deck with the 20MM gallery and the bottom of the pilothouse.

[MatthewB]

Are the plans from Floating Drydock for either of these ships (Quincy/Vincennes) any good?

I have been trying to decide where to get plans for them to do computer models of them, when I get done with the USS South Dakota and Nagara.

MB

[Dick J]

Are the plans from Floating Drydock for either of these ships (Quincy/Vincennes) any good?

I haven't seen them myself, so I can't say.

[MatthewB]

Question about the Depth Charge racks on the stern of the USS San Francisco (and possibly others in class during Early-war):

Was there any railing between the Depth Charge Racks?

Also, did any other ships in the class have Depth Charge Racks on the stern during the Early-war?

I know that at some point Smoke Generators were back there as well.

Were the Smoke Generators on the stern WITH the Depth Charge Racks (and when)?

What about the other ships in the class (And when)?

MB

[Rob-UK]

There were stanchions with netting between the racks at the rear deck edge.

In earlier times the racks were fitted without the smoke generators, but the racks were removed and smoke generators added at some point between earlier '43 and '44.

[MatthewB]

There were stanchions with netting between the racks at the rear deck edge.

In earlier times the racks were fitted without the smoke generators, but the racks were removed and smoke generators added at some point between earlier '43 and '44.

I think that I have some spare railing netting on a PE fret somewhere.

MB

[bwross11]

Greetings all,

I'm looking for confirmation, of a sorts, as to the radar suite San Francisco carried in the fall of 42. In particular, can anyone confirm that she was in fact carrying an SC-1 on the fore mast? Most models seem to indicate an SG at the foretop; but, I have a picture of her leaving Mare Island that appears to have the SC-1. Anyone got any more information?

thanks
Bruce

[Dick J]

The San Francisco carried an SC air search set rather than "SC-1". She appears to have been fitted for SG radar (platform is visible in photos) but no radar was fitted there. The lack of SG radar was a factor in the confusion both at Cape Esperance and in phase I of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. Helena did have the SG and was relaying contact reports to the San Fran (flagship in both battles, but different Admirals). That delay was partially responsible for the Admirals' slow reaction time in each action. In the later battle, the irony was that 3 of the 5 cruisers present were fitted with SG, but the two without were the two flagships. In addition to the SC set, San Francisco had FC radar (also known as MK-3) fitted to both main battery directors. Those were her only sets prior to the 1943 repairs and modernization.

[bwross11]

Thanks for the reply,
Now that you say that, I do seem to remember reading about that. But, I appreciate the confirmation. Now, all I have to do is solder up an antenna and I'm good to go!

thanks again,
Bruce

[Rob-UK]

One further question - I was looking at the numerous photos in relation to adding the access steps onto the side of the 8'' turrets, it appears that they are present only on the right hand side of each turret (starboard side of turret #1 and 2, port side of #3), noticeable on various members of the class - has anyone else noticed this?

[alleycat]

I have noticed some tube or pipe looking objects in photos of the 1942 San Francisco. There are six mounted vertically on the back of the hangar in front of the 8" #3 turret. There are two on the front and two on the back of the house under the search light tower, all stored horizontally. There are four on the superstructure under the port forward 5" gun. I have seen them laying on the deck in other photos.

Question: what are these and what color are they?
Maybe for flooding control? Maybe for underway refueling? Maybe rolled up tarps?

Thanks for your help.