Bow wave question

[biggles2]

I've done bow waves and water effects with some success in 1/700 and 1/350. I'm currently building Revell 1/72 S-Boat and if I place it in a water dio, I would want to show it moving at speed. Absorbant cotton won't be convincing at this scale, except as spray. The usual stuff: Celluclay, plaster, bran (thanks sergeantx!) won't hold up, or retain their shape for a larger scale. Without using fiberglass and resins, any suggestions? A light-weight material is a bonus.

[MareNostrum]

The April issue of FineScale Modeler came in yesterday's mail, Chris Flodberg (sound familiar?) has an article on sculpting seas for ship dioramas, there's a caption to one of the instructive pictures that reads, "For white-water effects, I use medical rayon balls (far superior to cotton balls)..."

[Aop Aur]

Chris Flodberg posted his techniques here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155661

If you want to try others' as well, then here is the compendium.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37923

Kostas katseas did his bow waves very well, unfortunately his link shows the Hood at anchor. But I would assume his technique is similar to Chris Flodberg...?


Good luck,
Aop.

[biggles2]

Yes...I did say I have already used cotton balls (absorbant cotton) and it works well in 1/700 and 1/350. I've read all Chris Flodberg's tutorials. I did say I'm working in 1/72 - quite a bit bigger than 1/700 and 1/350! And the techniques which work well in those scales don't always look right in larger scales. The bow wave I would make would be 4 - 6 inches in height.

[MatthewB]

You may be stuck with doing a clear resin wave.

You can make a form/mold for it using wax-paper, and then sanding it.

After sanding it, you polish it with toothpaste, and then put a coat of clear over it to get it to be transparent, or you stain it to get a translucent look.

It has been years since I have used this technique (and then for water in a model train set), so all I recall are the basics.

I will see if I can find any specifics.

[Eric Bergerud]

This is something you could try - can't remember where I ran into it. If you want a very pronounced bow wave, the wave is being thrown up and then curling back down at an angle. There are two ways to do this and I'd guess they could both be scaled up (or down depending how you look at it.) First, get some clear gloss medium or Woodland Scenics Water Effects - either will work but for this Woodland is a little better. Get a plate or a container and put down some wax paper. Pour out a nice circular puddle - maybe 4" diameter. (Make some smaller ones too - useful.) Let it try overnight. Remove it and you've got a clear type of plastic that molds extremely well and will hold its shape. If you want it thicker, double the number of gloss puddles and when dry, stick them together with the same stuff you used to make them. Use something like a half circle - bend it in a curved arc with the thin end touching the bow. Attach it with the same material you made it with - painted your choice. If you look at it from head on, there will be a clear space in the wave - like you see in surfer movies. Then put on rayon.

I think you could something very similar with very thick aluminum foil - the kind that's on a decent bottle of wine - champagne is very good. Make some kind of half circle or the shape you want. The foil will be a little irregular but I'd think that would be good. Paint it white or maybe a water color. Attach to the water with gloss medium or maybe PVA. When you get the effect you want then put on rayon. (If you find rayon hard to find, go on eBay and get a small portion of CelluCotton - it's like a thin rope of rayon fiber that will work great - about $3). Here's a humble example - I was looking for a vessel moving at cruising speed in calm waters: but if you look at the bow, there's a curled wave up there that you could stick a toothpick through next to the hull.



Eric

[DWPC]

The April issue of FineScale Modeler came in yesterday's mail, Chris Flodberg (sound familiar?) has an article on sculpting seas for ship dioramas, there's a caption to one of the instructive pictures that reads, "For white-water effects, I use medical rayon balls (far superior to cotton balls)..."

The FSM piece on Mr Flodberg's method shows Howe steaming with marvelous looking bow wave but completely omits how the bow wave is formed over the lovely sea surface. The example in the article is a different and simpler sea surface than shown in the feature photos on the cover and the article lead-in.

[nikosmadakis]

Check out the 2nd video for the bow wave for 1/350


Chris Flodberg

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155661
Youtube link to video showing how he applies the cotton wakes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOqC4m6woEo
Youtube link to video showing how he applies bow spray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6INBVhRY8U

[DWPC]

I believe S-boats were at least a semiplaning hull, so keep in mind that much of the forward hull will not be immersed and the wave will actually begin well aft of where a displacement hull bow wave would appear. Lots of fine spray...quite a challenge at a large scale.

[nikosmadakis]

viewtopic.php?f=60&t=159487

this is how i did it my S-100. Lots of cotton and gently touch the edges with plain silicon. Spray is impossible to make.

You could get a transparency, cut it as a triangle and glue it beneath the bow and build on that if you want it higher.

[biggles2]

I've been trying out Eric's suggestion of making splashes and wave crests from artist's clear acrylic gel on wax paper and peeling it off when it's dry. The thinner the application, the more transparent it is. This has great potential. I can work these into the water surface with more acrylic gel.

[nikosmadakis]

Cool! Post some pictures please, I m interested to see how it will work out, and whether it will be strong enough to hold what comes next

[Eric Bergerud]

If you want to make the stuff thicker and still transparent (I'd think it would turn clear if dried - although it doesn't ever turn hard - molding paste will do that - actually molding paste might be a good wave maker too as it sands very well) simply make several puddles on the wax paper. When they dry and turn clear, stick them together with a very small bit of medium, although I'm not sure you'd need it as the medium is a little tacky when dry.

Eric

[biggles2]

I've been using artist's acrylic gel for years as a water surface and you can form small waves suitable for 1/700 and 1/350, but thick applications don't dry transparent, and the gel will not support it's weight unless it's supported against a ship's hull. Making thin applications on wax paper means you can make them as big as you want - because they are flat on the paper and when dry (overnight) you can stand them up on edge for a bow wave, for example, or even splashes in larger scales like 1/35. And since you can make them really thin (if careful you can peel very thin applications off the wax paper) they are very transparent. And they are very flexible so you can shape them.

[biggles2]

A couple of examples of dried acrylic gel. With some more purposeful shaping when brushing the gel you could make properly shaped bow waves, etc:




As you can see, the thin areas are very translucent.

[nikosmadakis]

very cool i have to try this

[Eric Bergerud]

If you want to see how this stuff works in action, YouTube has a zillion videos on water effects. A 5min video "Realistic Water & Water Effects - Model Scenery | Woodland Scenics" shows how acrylic gels can be used, including puddles. (Realistic Water is a very good product that's clear as a bell when applied and dried but is so thin that there's a limit to how well it can be sculpted - but perfect for making puddles to shape. It's really too thin for making ocean effects. Chris Floodberg appears to be using Liquitex gloss mediums now - I prefer Golden mediums of any kind, but the difference isn't great. Liquitex is thicker so it can be worked a little before dry - Golden less so which is a bonus if the material you're pouring it on already has the shape you want. (Woodland Scenics Realistic Water won't hold to any undulation: a thicker product called Water Effects might be of use: video on that too.) You can also check one of the many videos (several on water effects) done by a YouTube site called Terranscapes. Woodland Scenics caters to the railroaders - Terranscapes to the fantasy war game fans: both genres have some really good modelers.

You can learn a lot about dioramas too - but if you're looking for trees, grass etc - go immediately to Scenic Express which sells it's own products but also many others - many from Europe - that range from very good & well priced to extraordinary and very expensive. I've got their "Super Trees" and they're amazing. Scenic Express has a number of videos on YT, and also on their website.
Eric