HMS Prince of Wales

[elcejay]

Hello all,

For discussion...initial analysis of three IWM images of KGV in paint relevant to PoW...

Consolidated TR images 507A 507C and a B paint KGV 1942.jpg

Regards,
Lindsay

[MartinJQuinn]

Someone's interpretation of the Prince of Wales at a recent show in Upstate NY, USA, BuffCon.

PrinceofWales01.JPG

PrinceofWales02.JPG

Photos were taken from this post on HyperScale (scroll down to the bottom), so I have no idea who built this.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47751/me ... OS++Part+1

[EJFoeth]

I have no idea who built this.

If only he put his model on a stand with his name on it

Pretty sure it's a combination of the colors Tamiya recommends for its kit and a bit of creativity added to the Tamiya scheme.

[MartinJQuinn]

I have no idea who built this.

If only he put his model on a stand with his name on it

Oh jeez - I didn't even see that!

[dick]

Lindsay,

The mid colour on the gun barrel, turret, and upper B barbette is too dark for 507C. It is MS4. But the light grey beside the sailor's face on the bridge is 507C as you suggest (nb Sutho)

I can find no accurate drawing of the late 1942 scheme in anything I have.

Best wishes

[Sutho]

This is what I think that we are seeing...

TR 325 paint Q.jpg

(It is very difficult to determine the colour of the paint on the upper barbette and the front turret face by colour matching - it returns all nature of values due to shadow and, being so close to the camera, from dirt. Returned ranges are in yellows, greens, blues and violets. No consistency. I think that we have to go from eyeball, and I agree that it must be 507C.)

Regards,
Lindsay

With this photo you have labelled B5 on the turret face that are actually shadows cast by the sun.

[Sutho]

This is what I am seeing from this photo.

[dick]

This is what I am seeing from this photo.

If we say KGV's 1942 4 tone scheme consisted of colour panels A-D (plus white countershading), then the darkest tone A is known with 100% certainty from ADM 212/123 to have been 507A in 1942 and the lightest D known with 100% certainty to have been 507C.

The camouflage panel high up forward on the starboard side of the bridge was all one tone: B. The area you have labelled B6? was therefore tone B just like the area above it that you have labelled B5. I think it is coming out light in the colour photo because of the strong sunlight and glare.

[Cag]

Hi All,

I tend to agree with Dick, in the files holding official observation reports made by Lt G. Hall (Claude Muncaster) contain info that the C in C Home Fleet wanted the MS1 shade as used in the scheme on HMS Anson etc to be replaced by 507a on HMS KG V a difference of 9%. I think that B5 is in there with the possibility of MS4 (As both I think are mentioned in the Anson scheme) and B6, and a definate 507c which is also mentioned in the observation reports.

Just another little bit of information on HMS Prince of Wales, according to her builders plans the upper deck was covered with Borneo white hardwood and had a teak spurnwater under all of the deck staining (I think this also backs up a AFO I've seen on the increasing difficulty with supplies of teak).

Hope this is of some help,
Best wishes
Cag.

[elcejay]

Thank you all for the KGV analysis and information.

I think that I will drop this line of analysis for now. I was hoping that it was known what all four paints were, and that that might help us with PoW, but we are only certain of 507A and C (and the white countershading), so to go any further with this line of analysis is just adding speculation to speculation.

For those who wish to pursue the KGV analysis, I will go so far as saying that I am certain that there are two paints showing on the upper bridge in TR 309 (and its reversed image, IWM TR 355). There is a clear demarcation of colours visible by eye and by colour analysis at the point shown in the images below. It is not caused by shadow or any other lighting anomaly.

TR 309 and TR 335 demarcation.jpg

(To ensure that I minimise confusion with the earlier KGV images, I will go back and edit the text that I added to them to show the uncertainty for anything there other than 507A and white.)

Regards,

[Cag]

Hi All,

I'd just like to post to thank Lindsay, Sutho, Michael, Dick and Evert-Jan for all the hard work that's being put in to work out the MS colours etc. I do think it's magnificent research and carried out and shared freely with only one aim, which is to help.

I just thought I'd say thanks as we sometimes forget that research takes time and effort for all those who carry it out, and it deserves a thank you now and again!

Best wishes
Cag.

[Sutho]

Determining colours from photos is really hard. I do not trust photos or prints from the time very much for several reasons such as ink available to photographic printing and how the photos became digital. Were the negatives scanned or was the photo scanned. There are other factors in development like white balance and camera settings.

One big issue we fail to recognise is reflection. Anyone into photography will realise that at sunrise and sunset objects can appear red in photos and the entire colour spectrum changes. Same goes for ships at sea. We also have to contend with the colour of the water being reflected and casting a shade over certain paints.

I own full frame Canon DSLR cameras with the expensive "L" series lenses. Now you can't get much better than that in photography these days and even those types of cameras can be fooled by light and produce false colours or more to the point manipulated colours be surrounding environmental factors. That is why I place little weight on any photo from the time. The photos are helpful.

Looking at the photo again and again the B5 at least could match the WEM colour coats range. We have various shades and light sources and to me it could well be the same.

The 507C I would expect based on the WEM colour coat tins would appear lighter than the images in the photo.

I do not like the photos of the model above in this thread as the pattern is not correct and demonstrates little research so therefore the paints have no credibility. The camouflage pattern on that model is too obviously incorrect it rules out any chance of the paint being remotely correct.

[dick]

Looking at the photo again and again the B5 at least could match the WEM colour coats range. We have various shades and light sources and to me it could well be the same.

Sorry, its difficult to keep track of this: which photo?

[elcejay]

Sorry - back to KGV colour transpencies again. My other avenues of amateur research on Admiralty paints are getting a little bogged down, hence no more colour matches for a while. I need some inspiration. Applying the quick education that Michael, Dick and Cag have given me to these photos and offering it for further discussion may help to provide the spark. I suspect that we can get to the bottom of what we are seeing in these photos.

Firstly, an apology to Sutho - you are quite right that the 'blue' patches on the KGV B turret face in IWM TR 309 are shadow. The same colour appears on the front of the bridge under the muzzle of the Bren gun in TR 309 and it is not a camouflage patch.

Following is a quick orientation image to make sure that I, a mere Pongo, am seeing the same parts of the ship as those in the Senior Service, and to explain the direction of the sunlight in case it was not already understood.

TR 309 and TR 325 orientation.jpg

Taking into account the direction of the sun as it plays on the surfaces of the ship, I believe that we are seeing all four paints on KGV (not including the white countershading). Here, for critique, is my latest understanding. I have identified the paints with numbers, not letters, so that we don't confuse them with the work already done on PoW.

TR 309 and 325 paint numbering.jpg

(NOTE: Along the left hand edge of image TR 325 I have put an asterisk against a 1 and a 4 paint. I did that to stress that: the area marked '1*' is not in shadow, this is a camouflage patch and it seems to be paint 1; and though the area marked '4*' is lighter than the area marked '4' above it, it is the same paint - the area marked '4*' is where the shelter-deck-forward angles outwards from the lower bridge (if I have the terminology correct), i.e. it presents itself more closely to the sun than the port face of the bridge above it.)

Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary, KGV was in four paints. On the information that Dick provided, I understand that there is confidence in two of those paints were 507A and 507C. These would be paints 1 and 4. I believe that paint 2 looks like MS3. [This last sentence has been edited to remove the incorrect reference to Dick's earlier post re MS4, as picked up by John in the next post. Apologies for the confusion.]

Paint 3 looks to be blue-grey paint. From what we see on the barbette and the upper bridge, I see it as having a similar reflectance value to paint 4. To my understanding, our B options are B5, B6 and WA lt blue. I believe that B5 is too low in reflectance to be a candidate. Is it B6, perhaps?

Regards,
Lindsay

[JCRAY]

I'm confused I thought dick said what you have labeled #2, was what he thought to be MS 4?
John

[elcejay]

I'm confused I thought dick said what you have labeled #2, was what he thought to be MS 4?
John

You are correct, John. Thanks for the pick up. I have quoted Dick incorrectly and will edit the post.

The paint marked '2' looks to me to be MS3, not MS4, but I will defer to Dick's judgement as I am only working of electronic images of the paints and paint samples.

Regards,
Lindsay

[Cag]

Hi All,

There are quite a few images on the IWM website that show RN ships in colour. TR 2391 is of HMS Duke of York which I assume is in the old Admiralty Home Fleet Grey (AP 507b) which shows up quite well.

There is also TR 337 of the KG V showing the MS4 colour and also of interest a little of the roof of A turret which seems to match the tops of the guns (And colourcoats AP507a?) which maybe is the non slip dark grey as mentioned by Dick/Michael? We know that AP507a is essentially what was AP507b from AFO's CAFO's etc so maybe this darker colour in the image (And colourcoats AP507a) matches Admiralty 'dark grey' not 'Home Fleet' grey?

TR 318 is also of KG V and does seem to show a B5, MS4, and a 507c, the lightest of colours on the superstructure?

I agree that to try and gauge these colours from images is difficult, but it may give us an idea how close the colourcoats range are on specific colours, as colourcoats are still what can be termed as the 'benchmark' available at this present time. Sovereign Hobbies are, with the aid of Dick, looking at the Ark Royal deck colour and contribute a great deal in trying to help match colours.

Again thanks to Lindsay, in his attempts to match colours from images, if you're a pongo I don't know what that would make me! (A drongo?)
Best wishes
Cag.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Just a thought that maybe Dick may be able to help with, the image of HMS Duke of York showing 507b shade upperworks, this would have been during her light superstructure/dark hull period is that right?

I have seen written that this was a 507c uppers and 507a hull scheme which has always puzzled me as in B/W images the upperworks always reminded me of shots of PoW and KG V in 1941 Home Fleet Grey. Would this colour image mean that this scheme was in fact 507b superstructure with an MS2 or Admiralty dark grey hull?

Best wishes
Cag.

[508medway]

507B was the pre war Home Fleet Dark Grey and 507A is the same colour as 507B just not as glossy.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Thanks 508medway, to put my question another way, would it be possible that DoY may have had 507a (Old 507b) upperworks and a darker grey hull?

The reason I'm trying to get to grips with this is to try and work out what colour we see in a lot of early schemes for example HMS Devonshire, painted in Home Fleet grey (507b at that point, whch became 507a) and a darker grey in oblique rectangles (Seen on the DVD of Royal Navy ships in colour).

This darker grey seems to be a close match with a colourcoats paint, which is their 507a. If, as we believe, 507b became 507a, which is supported by AFO's etc, what would this dark colour have been? We also see this on HMS York, and obviously on HMS DoY in her light upperworks dark hull scheme if her upperworks were 507a (Old 507b).

This would help with PoW and others as it may be the second darkest toned paint? Would this have been MS2, although I realise that in the York/Devonshire schemes MS2 would not have been available and so also begs the question what was used in these schemes if not MS2?

Is there a dark blue/grey paint 507? that was in use and readily available to ships that was used when they designed their own patterns or did they just add black to Home Fleet Grey? (Which later became MS2?)

We do often see a lot of literary pieces calling this early dark colour 507a, (As well as the shade used on pre war metal decks) which if the AFO's etc are right (Which I believe they are) cannot be correct, and therefore are we essentially 'missing' a colour or are colourcoats correct with the colour but have the designation wrong? (i.e. the 'dark grey' used on turret tops etc)

Sorry to be a pain!
Best wishes
Cag.