HMS Prince of Wales

[508medway]

Hi All,

There are quite a few images on the IWM website that show RN ships in colour. TR 2391 is of HMS Duke of York which I assume is in the old Admiralty Home Fleet Grey (AP 507b) which shows up quite well.

There is also TR 337 of the KG V showing the MS4 colour and also of interest a little of the roof of A turret which seems to match the tops of the guns (And colourcoats AP507a?) which maybe is the non slip dark grey as mentioned by Dick/Michael? We know that AP507a is essentially what was AP507b from AFO's CAFO's etc so maybe this darker colour in the image (And colourcoats AP507a) matches Admiralty 'dark grey' not 'Home Fleet' grey?

TR 318 is also of KG V and does seem to show a B5, MS4, and a 507c, the lightest of colours on the superstructure?

I agree that to try and gauge these colours from images is difficult, but it may give us an idea how close the colourcoats range are on specific colours, as colourcoats are still what can be termed as the 'benchmark' available at this present time. Sovereign Hobbies are, with the aid of Dick, looking at the Ark Royal deck colour and contribute a great deal in trying to help match colours.

Again thanks to Lindsay, in his attempts to match colours from images, if you're a pongo I don't know what that would make me! (A drongo?)
Best wishes
Cag.

Cag,

Sir Henry Ruthven Moore who is photographed in TR2391 on the Duke of York as Commander in Chief Home Fleet did not take up that position until 1944 which is when I assume the photo was taken. By then, the B & G series of colours were in use so it would be one of them.

[508medway]

Hi All,

Thanks 508medway, to put my question another way, would it be possible that DoY may have had 507a (Old 507b) upperworks and a darker grey hull?

The reason I'm trying to get to grips with this is to try and work out what colour we see in a lot of early schemes for example HMS Devonshire, painted in Home Fleet grey (507b at that point, whch became 507a) and a darker grey in oblique rectangles (Seen on the DVD of Royal Navy ships in colour).

This darker grey seems to be a close match with a colourcoats paint, which is their 507a. If, as we believe, 507b became 507a, which is supported by AFO's etc, what would this dark colour have been? We also see this on HMS York, and obviously on HMS DoY in her light upperworks dark hull scheme if her upperworks were 507a (Old 507b).

This would help with PoW and others as it may be the second darkest toned paint? Would this have been MS2, although I realise that in the York/Devonshire schemes MS2 would not have been available and so also begs the question what was used in these schemes if not MS2?

Is there a dark blue/grey paint 507? that was in use and readily available to ships that was used when they designed their own patterns or did they just add black to Home Fleet Grey? (Which later became MS2?)

We do often see a lot of literary pieces calling this early dark colour 507a, (As well as the shade used on pre war metal decks) which if the AFO's etc are right (Which I believe they are) cannot be correct, and therefore are we essentially 'missing' a colour or are colourcoats correct with the colour but have the designation wrong? (i.e. the 'dark grey' used on turret tops etc)

Sorry to be a pain!
Best wishes
Cag.

Cag,

I�m not sure of the timing of the schemes you mention. Can you post photos of the two tone schemes you mention please.

On 20th August 1940, capital ships in Home waters were to be painted Home Fleet Grey as attached. Cruisers could be in two colours being light and dark grey. All decks were to be a dark colour. Turret tops were to be non slip paint which the 1939 AFO had as available in dark grey, light grey, Home Fleet Grey, bronze grey and black. Only a guess on my part but as Home Fleet Grey and dark grey are both mentioned, could the dark grey actually be BS381 32 Dark Battleship Grey and the light grey be BS381 31 Light battleship Grey?

Regards,

Michael

[Cag]

Hi All,

Thanks 508medway so G10? But would the principle still be the same as the two tone hull/upperworks scheme would still be in effect, and would have followed matt AP/MS colours?

Sorry no I don't have any images of HMS York or Devonshire on computer but I'm sure there are some on the net (I think I've seen colour ones of York somewhere?). I have seen your document regarding the dark/light grey scheme (Alexandria scheme) used in the Mediterranean but both Devonshire and York were painted Home Fleet grey and another darker colour in late 1940/early 1941 (I think that the DVD Royal Navy at war in colour by Roland R Smith has footage of Devonshire in Scapa Flow early 41).

Best wishes
Cag.

[dick]

Re Duke of York there are some 500 plus images of her on the IWM site. Having worked my way through them, and assuming the dates given are correct, my impression is that:

From November 1941 up to and including November 1942 she was in overall Home Fleet grey.

By July 1943 she was in dark hull/light upperworks (presumably 507A/G10 and 507C/G45) and was still in this in November 1943.

However by the time of the sinking of the Scharnhorst in December 1943 she was back in overall Home Fleet grey.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Thanks Dick that answers my question, I was always unsure as to whether the upperworks were 507c light grey as sometimes it appears a match for the 507b shade seen on Home Fleet ships in B/W images but thanks for that.

Have you seen the RN in colour shots of HMS Devonshire at Scapa Flow? They appear just after the scenes with HMS Queen Elizabeth and show her from a distance as the crews play football or hockey. She appears to be in 507b with a darker blue/grey rhomboid pattern? (Which I believe was also on HMS York?) I was just wondering what that composed of (i.e. is it 507b plus another colour or a lighter colour and 507b which makes the home fleet grey look darker) and whether either of these colours could be matched or apply to PoW?

Thanks everyone again for the help
Best wishes
Cag.

[dick]

Dear Michael,

I�m sorry but there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the dark and light greys being referred to in the first paragraph of that August 1940 Home Fleet memo are anything other than Home Fleet grey and Mediterranean grey.

This ("dark grey"/"light grey") is how those two paints are referred to in innumerable AFOs and the Naval Stores books.

My impression is that in many cases a ship already in overall Home Fleet grey reached for some pots of Mediterranean Grey to paint on some lighter panels and a ship already in overall Mediterranean grey reached for some pots of Home Fleet grey to paint on the darker panels (there is actually film of exactly this happening on HMS Kent in the IWM film collection).

(Why would they have used anything but these standard paints? These were the paints available to them from RN stores. Why would the RN pay for the commercial paints rather than use their own paints etc?)

Sorry no I don't have any images of HMS York or Devonshire .....but both Devonshire and York were painted Home Fleet grey and another darker colour in late 1940/early 1941

Dear Cag,

I�m sorry but to my eye Devonshire and York were both painted in a pattern using Home Fleet grey (the dark tone) and a lighter grey - Mediterranean Grey presumably - not a darker grey in 1940/41. The IWM Roland Smith DVD does indeed show this and here are a couple of photos.

Best wishes

[dick]

... We know that AP507a is essentially what was AP507b from AFO's CAFO's etc so maybe this darker colour in the image (And colourcoats AP507a) matches Admiralty 'dark grey' not 'Home Fleet' grey?

If what you are saying is could the darker colour on the turret top in TR337 match 1931-44 era BS 381C #32 Dark Battleship grey then I would say quite possibly. But on the question of whether WEM Colourcoats 507a matches #32, that thought occurred to me too: last year I visited the archives at the British Standards Institution and directly compared Colourcoats 507a with #32 ...as you can see the Colourcoats is darker.

[dick]

Going back now to the KGV colours, this is what I think we are seeing on her bridge/starboard side (dark to light: 507A, B5, MS4, 507C):

a KGV bridge camo shades.jpg

TR309 seems to me therefore to be a very unreliable guide to the hue and tone of B5.

And for comparison the camouflage pattern on Anson and Howe:

a Anson bridge.jpg

a Howe bridge.jpg

[Sutho]

Going back now to the KGV colours, this is what I think we are seeing on her bridge/starboard side (dark to light: 507A, B5, MS4, 507C):

a KGV bridge camo shades.jpg

TR309 seems to me therefore to be a very unreliable guide to the hue and tone of B5.

And for comparison the camouflage pattern on Anson and Howe:

a Anson bridge.jpg

a Howe bridge.jpg

I am just curious as to why all of a sudden MS4 becomes an option for this scheme when according to eye witness accounts and testimony it was B6. Even with B&W photos and not being able to ascertain of the images were scanned from photo or produced from negatives and what filters were used and what shutter speed and type of film used and if the film was exposed to sunlight or lights upon opening why is MS4 an option despite eye witness accounts.

I am not trying to be difficult but there are reference materials and books supposedly with their information compiled from eye witnesses at the time yet for some reason this information is now being disregarded.

[dick]

I am just curious as to why all of a sudden MS4 becomes an option for this scheme when according to eye witness accounts and testimony it was B6. Even with B&W photos and not being able to ascertain of the images were scanned from photo or produced from negatives and what filters were used and what shutter speed and type of film used and if the film was exposed to sunlight or lights upon opening why is MS4 an option despite eye witness accounts.

I am not trying to be difficult but there are reference materials and books supposedly with their information compiled from eye witnesses at the time yet for some reason this information is now being disregarded.

Dear Sutho,

Which eye witness accounts? What testimony? Please cite the references. Otherwise "supposedly" is the key word.

My hunch is that the suggestion of B6 can be traced back to the guesses of someone decades after the war.

Actual eye witness accounts are to be found in ADM 212/123 which records the observation reports of the Camouflage Directorate in the Scapa area in July of 1942. That is where the suggestion of MS4 comes from. They are explicit about MS4 on Anson. The observation report of the 31 July 42 sortie with the Admiralty Camouflage Directorate officers Mr Singleton, Mr Trice Martin and Lt Graham-Hall (Claude Muncaster) as observers seems to me to say it was MS4 on KGV too. This is then confirmed by what you see in the colour photos.

What contrary evidence is there?

[Cag]

Hi All,

Thanks for that Dick, the Roland Smith film had me puzzled. In the images the ship is in direct sunlight and yet the lightest colour seemed too blue and dark to be 507c as it didn't seem to match what we were calling 507c on the stern of PoW in the colour film/images of her (I realise the difference in latitude and sun ratio conditions may make a difference but surely not to such an extent).

The 507c in the colour film of PoW seems to match the colour on the top of the after funnel so it all seemed a little confusing, as I had the thought that this may mean that the lightest colour on PoW may be MS4a and not 507c (507c 45% as opposed to MS4a 55%).

I agree that with York being in the Mediterranean that her scheme would probably be 507c with 507b rhomboids, it just seemed odd that with Devonshire being in home waters she would have the same scheme but I bow to wiser heads!

Thanks again
best wishes
Cag.

[Sutho]

Going back now to the KGV colours, this is what I think we are seeing on her bridge/starboard side (dark to light: 507A, B5, MS4, 507C):

a KGV bridge camo shades.jpg

TR309 seems to me therefore to be a very unreliable guide to the hue and tone of B5.

And for comparison the camouflage pattern on Anson and Howe:

a Anson bridge.jpg

a Howe bridge.jpg

I am just curious as to why all of a sudden MS4 becomes an option for this scheme when according to eye witness accounts and testimony it was B6. Even with B&W photos and not being able to ascertain of the images were scanned from photo or produced from negatives and what filters were used and what shutter speed and type of film used and if the film was exposed to sunlight or lights upon opening why is MS4 an option despite eye witness accounts.

I am not trying to be difficult but there are reference materials and books supposedly with their information compiled from eye witnesses at the time yet for some reason this information is now being disregarded.

Warship Perspective Series 1 to 4 state the information was compiled from eye witness accounts and interviews and information collected at the time.

The above photos are far too poor quality to draw any conclusion as to what the colour is and we do not know if the negative was scanned or if a photographic print was scanned which could yeild extremely different results. The photos are just way too poor quality to be of any use and even modern digital cameras can be fooled by angles of light.

I have taken extensive photos of naval ships from helicopters in bright sunlight and can assure you that colours I have seen physically in touching distance appear totally different with the sun beaming down on them taken from a distance.

I do not trust the quality of those photos or any photos considering what I know about photography.

Below are two photos I have taken:

Both are on the same ship that I was physically on and able to look at colours and I also know what colours they are because I used to paint these colours on the ships when I was in the Navy. What we are seeing is direct sunlight making a deck look a totally different colour than it is and in the sunlight the green tint to the superstructure almost vanishes where the green tint becomes more prominent in the photo taken in the shade. You cannot get a more professional lens and camera that they were taken with.

Several pages back we had a member Linux if I remember correctly posting about the various colours and they emphasised how red can look totally different in B&W.

With all the evidence that photos cannot be trusted it is impossible to say from any photos posted on here what the colours are.

We do not know if the negatives were scanned or if the prints were scanned. We do not know what filters were used, what amount of sunlight there was. We do not know anything about the camera settings. Not to mention the dreaded photo editing programs that these images have no doubt gone through to optimise them for the internet. There are just too many factors to conclusively name a colour.

[dick]

Dear Cag,

Thank you for your patient probings!

The photo of York that I posted shows her whilst serving with the Home Fleet before she deployed to the Med. As Michael�s Home Fleet memo evidences, some Home Fleet cruisers painted into dark and light grey patterned camouflage in 1940.

I too have occasionally wondered if that light grey patch towards the stern of PoW in the colour film might just have been MS4A but the B&W photos seem to say no. Assuming we are talking about the same camouflage panel, looking at the colour film closely the particular lightness seems to be at the lower part of the diagonal band that we know from all the other photos was one uniform tone.

Prince of Wales ii colour - Copy.JPG

I think I understand your question about Devonshire a bit better now.

Given the B&W photo I posted was from 1940, and that it and other very early war photos (albeit of poor quality) seem to show the same �normal light� light grey (if you see what I mean), I have always thought the colour film was playing tricks on us. My line of thinking being that whilst the footballers in the foreground are in sun, Devonshire and the hills behind her were not. Something like what is happening in these two photos of the same ship taken a few moments apart, one in bright sunlight, one with the ship in the shadow of a cloud but bright sunlight behind, was going on.

a.jpg

b.jpg

But maybe that was not the case and having had a hunt around for B&W photos of Devonshire in 1941 and 1942 I do see the possibility of what you are getting at. The film would have been taken in early summer 1941 after Devonshire emerged from a dockyard refit. Perhaps during that early 1941 refit she adopted a slightly darker and bluer light tone in her two tone camouflage. This could perhaps just possibly have been B6.

So that others can comment, here are a couple of stills.

Devonshire 1941 6 Scapa b - Copy.jpg

Devonshire 1941 6 Scapa d - Copy.jpg

Best wishes.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Thanks again Dick much abliged, I've been trying to copy some images from the DVD but not getting the correct image quality!

Yes the light stripe at the stern of PoW did have me puzzled especially compared to the Roland Smith image. I did think of MS4a but agree the B/W images seem to point to 507c (Images of Repulse pre war etc)

I can see what you mean as regards colour shift on the Devonshire images and have read about the Purkinje effect (Blues and reds) and thought the image may have been taken late evening and may explain things? (Also explaining the darker looking 507b rhomboids) But I must admit it did puzzle me and thought about the possibility of Dark Grey or MS2 being used as ir resembled the 2nd darkest colour on PoW. I also thought of 507b with MS4 but the lighter colour looked too blue and also thought of the fabled B6!

I agree with Sutho that trying to exactly identify colours from images is open to mistake, even same image same ship a colour forward may seem different aft, but would it at least give a range of known colours that may apply and a range of colours that it definitely is not? (And with the help of Dick, Evert-Jan, Sutho, 508medway, Lindsay and others including my humble contributions we may tie down the colours and also correlate with the colourcoats range)

Best wishes
Cag

[dick]

I am just curious as to why all of a sudden MS4 becomes an option for this scheme when according to eye witness accounts and testimony it was B6. Even with B&W photos and not being able to ascertain of the images were scanned from photo or produced from negatives and what filters were used and what shutter speed and type of film used and if the film was exposed to sunlight or lights upon opening why is MS4 an option despite eye witness accounts.

I am not trying to be difficult but there are reference materials and books supposedly with their information compiled from eye witnesses at the time yet for some reason this information is now being disregarded.

Warship Perspective Series 1 to 4 state the information was compiled from eye witness accounts and interviews and information collected at the time.

etc

Dear Sutho,

We are not using black and white photos to conclusively identify colour but to establish the number of different tones in a camouflage scheme, which were where in the design, and to establish a relative hierarchy of tones. In the main we are dealing with shades of grey and subtle blue greys and green greys not vivid reds and yellows so I don�t think we are at too much risk from the extreme effects that Linux highlights but one is conscious of that potential effect with certain colours. (Re the use of filters, we have probably seen these effects most clearly in the varied tones that Home Fleet grey appears in photos.) But we are basing our assessment on scores of images of the individual ship rather than any one photo, looking for a consistent number, positioning and hierarchy of tones.

The point of posting those three photos of KGV class battleship bridges was to highlight that, in the hierarchy of KGV�s 4 tone scheme, the panel high up on the starboard side of the bridge was the second darkest in the scheme (so it could not be B6 even if the scheme consisted of 507A, B5, B6 and 507C).

I agree with you about the �risks� of suggesting actual colours from B&W photos. It is a subjective judgement (guess sometimes) but it is based on our knowledge of which colours were available to the RN at the time and of their particular reflection factors, the camouflage practices of the time and whatever other contemporary evidence is available. But I don�t agree with your negativity about what the B&W and colour photos and film can tell us - I fear we will have to agree to disagree on that.

So, Warship Perspectives.

I have carefully read and re-read the author�s introduction but I don�t see any suggestion from him that every suggested camouflage scheme therein was compiled from eye witness accounts and information collected at the time. In particular he writes: �Photographs and there (sic) interpretation played a major role in this book��

The great tragedy is that with a couple of exceptions the author does not identify which suggestions for the colours in the schemes are based on what source (and if human, who was the source, what the source actually said - the level of detail, whether it was a contemporary note or a recollection decades afterwards etc (we know what tricks memories play) - so one can weigh it up) and which are based on interpretation of photos.

The author himself accepts his work �almost certainly contains errors� and we have already confirmed this in the case of Prince of Wales. The author states (Vol 4 page 28) that her camouflage applied in July 1941 consisted of 5 colours but that �By the time she sailed for the Far East in October 1941 the MS3 appears to have been painted out�. However we have seen that the 5 colours remained.

In the case of KGV, Anson and Howe (Vol 2 page 23) the author says their schemes consisted of 507A, B5, B6 and 507C, yet, to repeat, we have the solid evidence from the July 1942 Scapa observations reports that one of Anson�s two colours was MS1 and another was MS4:

162 - Copy.JPG

And then we have this from the observation report of 31 July 1942 when looking at KGV:

DSC_0120 - Copy (2).JPG

I suggest therefore that it is worth keeping a rather more open mind about Warship Perspectives. Some further illustrations of why:

In Vol 1 page 6 it is suggested that Gypsy and Glowworm were not in camouflage at the time of their loss whereas I have found that both were in dark hull/light upperworks at that time; it is suggested that Codrington was in a disruptive design during the Norwegian campaign and at the time of her loss in June 1940 whereas I have found that at Dunkirk and as sunk she was in overall Home Fleet grey with a false bow wave; on page 7 the medium tone on Grenade �stone� is described as �outside the official range of colours� whereas Stone is in fact listed in the Authorised List of Naval Stores (the Rate Book) of the era as AP 513 with its mixing instructions (see below); the photo on that page shows Sheffield rather than Southampton; on page 8 Garland is included in the list of those ships in the Home Fleet in the Flotta scheme which is unlikely as she stayed in the Mediterranean at the outbreak of war and did not return to the UK until September 1940 after the Flotta Scheme had been discontinued (and a photo taken at Haifa in mid-August 1940 shows her in overall light grey); on page 9 Glorious� flight deck is stated to have been �dark grey���!

AP 513.JPG

Warship Perspectives has had a significant impact on our thinking about RN WW2 camouflage but in the circumstances I hope you will understand that I don�t accept everything in those volumes as unquestioningly as I sense you do.

[elcejay]

Going back now to the KGV colours, this is what I think we are seeing on her bridge/starboard side (dark to light: 507A, B5, MS4, 507C):

TR309 seems to me therefore to be a very unreliable guide to the hue and tone of B5.

Hello all,

Dick, thank you so much for the information on KGV and her sisters.

With regard to the colour images of KGV in late 1942, knowing now from Dick how MS4 was likely to have looked, I am very comfortable with 507A, MS4, B5 and 507C.

TR 325 throws me too. The blue paint on the barbette seems to be too light for B5, and of much the same reflectance as the paint above it which is either MS4 or 507C. Using the fact that we see two paints close-up on a single surface on a clear day to test my slowly growing knowledge here...

507C had a much higher reflectance than B5. B5 was replaced by B15 ('B' = blue-grey paint, '15' = 15% reflectance). 507C was replaced by G45 ('G' = grey paint of 45% reflectance). That gives a difference in reflectance value of 30, not taking into account that the 507C was actually glossier (hence higher in reflection, so more than 45%) than G45. The difference in reflection should therefore be even more marked than what we see in the image. 507C seems to be ruled out as the upper of the two paints on B barbette.

That leaves MS4. As I understand it, MS4 was replaced by B30. They are equivalent, but not the same. We have a difference in reflectance value somewhere in the vicinity of 15, but the MS series, to my understanding, was more matt than its successors, so the difference in reflection was likely to have been less than 15. That gives a more reasonable reflectance correlation between B5 and MS4 than between 507C and MS4.

If that is a reasonable line of logic, and we are right with the paint choices, then IWM TR 325 shows us MS4 on:

- the upper barbette,
- the turret faces
- the mid-third of barrels
- the lower portion of the bridge's port face (under the 507A), and
- the bridge's forward face

This is what I believe Dick has been saying since I first posted the images - none of it appears to be 507C, as I had suggested earlier.

Following are some B&W images of KGV and Howe at about the same time as the IWM colour images posted earlier. I am hopeful that these won't change our thoughts on what we are seeing in the IWM colour images, but I post them just in case!

The first two are known to be from between March and May 1942 - they were taken from HMS Middleton during a RAS on an Arctic convoy (images copyright to Hollywell House, see http://www.holywellhousepublishing.co.uk/Lawson.html). Though the dates are recorded as unknown on that website, http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... orge_V.htm shows that Middleton only operated with KGV during that period (March to May 1942).

The third is from the IWM collection showing KGV from Howe in convoy protection on 17 Oct 42 in the same scheme as the image above, I believe (image A12336, copyright to IWM). Howe has just completed her working up period.

(In between the date of the above image and the date of the one below, come the colour images posted earlier - IWM TR 309, TR 325, etc, taken Nov 42)

The last image is of Howe taken from KGV (IWM A 15435 copyright to IWM) in Feb 1943.

From viewing KGV's war service record on the above website, and double checking it against Burt's British Battleships 1919-1945 entry for KGVV, unless she was repainted in a new or revised scheme at Scapa (which may be possible - I am assuming it isn't likely, so please correct me if I am wrong), then KGV was wearing a different scheme to Howe whilst they operated from Scapa during the period these photos were taken (Oct 42 - Feb 43, minimum).

The late 1942/early1943 KGV scheme appears to me to be an earlier version of that we see later in 1943 on KGV (a scheme that then closely matches Howe's and Anson's?). The differences are most obvious on the bows and, though harder to see, on the bridge where the darkest paint does not yet wrap around the forward face of the bridge as it does on Howe. (There are other images showing the same clear-faced bridge on KGV in this scheme and which I can post if wanted - I have only posted here those images that I know the dates of, and of the starboard side of the ship for continuity with the IWM colour images).

DL(PA)-008a-OilingKGV.jpg

DL(PA)-008d-OilingKGV.jpg

A 12336 17 Oct 42 KGV at sea taken from Howe.jpg

howe from KGV Feb 1943 iwm A 15435.jpg

Regards,

[elcejay]

Re Devonshire - hopefully not posting the obvious - this is from Wikipedia...

HMS_Devonshire_FL5884.jpg

And a lovely shot, too large to spoil by attaching...

http://imgur.com/B8LaxOc

As for the stills, and the colour WW2 RN colour footage in general, the majority looks too blue to me to be a reliable guide. All the lighter greys in particular seem bluish, even if they are true greys.

I am not sure of the sources of Angus Konstam's and Paul Wright' works, but in British Heavy Cruisers 1939-45, Osprey New Vanguard 190 (and reproduced here for research purposes only, acknowledging their copyright), is this colour illustration of York in the splinter camo, stated as representing her Feb 40-May 41 scheme. The light grey is a true grey in the original, and the attachment is very close in colour to the original.

HMS York Feb 40 - May 41 research only copyright to Osprey Publishing Ltd.jpg

Regards,
Lindsay

[508medway]

Lindsay,

"All the lighter greys in particular seem bluish, even if they are true greys."

They should seem bluish to a degree. The RN used pure greys until the late 1920s when they introduced blue into their formulae. In WW2, 507A, B & C, G10 and G45 all contained blue black paste. The only pure grey was G5 from CB3098 onwards out.

So far, no formulae for the various MS series has been found. They only way of considering whether or not they contain blue would be to look at the samples in the RN's AFOs/CAFOs.

regards,

Michael

[elcejay]

They should seem bluish to a degree.

Agreed, Michael. I should perhaps say that lighter shades in the 'G' family of paints may seem to be in the 'B' family of paints in the videos and stills.

Hello all,

Here are colour readings from the lighter paint on the hull (from midships, aft). It seems to me that with all the blue around it, our eyes perceive it as being a lot bluer than it is - it is actually a silver grey in the image.

In case it is of use, I have included the closest paint matches from the limited listing on scalemodeldb.com. (I am not suggesting that you use silver paint - I included those paint matches for dramatic purposes - metallic silver paints were returned as close colour matches from the readings.) I also added a swatch of Tamiya Royal Light Grey, which is not a paint in the scalemodeldb.com database, but it is in the ball park for a scaled-down paint match.

Devonshire colour reading 1.jpg

(You would be right in thinking that towards the bows the lighter paint looks distinctly blue - my colour readings showed that it is blue in the photo, but I have not posted those readings. The blueness towards the bows is, I believe, due to shadow/shading of the bows as they curve away from the light. That is what caught me out with the earlier image of KGV that I posted, wrongly suggesting that there were blue patches on B turret. I stuck to presenting the readings of colours on the aft half of the hull of Devonshire because it is closer to the camera and in better light, so gives more accurate readings).

Regards,
Lindsay

[Cag]

Hi All,

Thanks Lindsay, could you tell me what approx reflectance factor your match would produce please?

You are correct that all pre-war paints (And therefore their matched wartime matt emulsion types supplied by Duresco etc) had Admiralty Pattern blue black paste as part of their ingredients (Even the pre-war white had 8oz of 8p blue added IIRC) and so even Mediterranean grey was to some extent a light blue grey (If you read the book Alarm Starboard by Geoffrey Brooke he mentions that the when first sighted the battleship Bismarck looked fawny grey as opposed to the greys that the Royal Navy used which were much more blue).

It was just that the lighter colour on the HMS Devonshire colour image really puzzled me as it matched colours in other images (HMS Hood in colour posted earlier in this subject and also ships we know to be in 507b in B/W images seem similar in tone to the light tone on HMS Devonshire) and it confused me as to why (Easily done these days). If it was 507c I can see how it would look blue and understand the problems as regards lighting conditions etc, for some reason to me it just looked too dark and too blue! (Maybe I've got a new ailment, Purkinje eyes!)

Thanks to all for the help
Best wishes
Cag.