HMS Prince of Wales

[elcejay]

Last bunch...some have been posted before from the Critical Path still previews, hopefully these are somewhat clearer.

Finding a clear, clean shot of the cam on the starboard bow has proven fruitless for me so far - does anyone have one they could share, please?

a turret 1.jpg

a turret 1a.jpg

a turret 2.jpg

b turret and bridge.jpg

port 1.jpg

port 2.jpg

x turret 4a.jpg

x turret 4c.jpg

bridge port side forwd view.jpg

x turret 2f.jpg

Regards,
Lindsay

[Sutho]

Thanks for the videos, EJ.

Some more stills:

port accommodation ladder 1.jpg

Regards,
Lindsay

download/file.php?id=92808&mode=view

The capture here is actually quite good because it is next to a sailors white cap and I am assuming that is port side port side forward of the main turret and the pale colour is what we have possibly identified as MS3

[elcejay]

Hello again,

If have been studying the three 'arched' panels on the port side of PoW in the colour footage. The forward dark arched panel is a blue-grey paint, as previously identified in this thread, but the paint under it is also a blue-grey.

I refer to these as panels 8 and 9, as per the diagram below (from gatorsmask.com, and noting that panels 4 and 6 (numbered by me from fore to aft) are actually one panel).

PoW port panels.jpg

You can see that panel 9 is bluish with the naked eye if you enlarge the stills (there are 6 stills in the previously posted GIF file of PoW in colour, all give blue-grey readings for this panel), and that the paints under the other dark arches are not. Here are the three panels enlarged...

POW_color - three arched panels.jpg

And here are some colour call-outs from some of my rougher workings (they more easily demonstrate what I am describing than the other workings). The first shows panels 8 and 9, as well as some call-outs from a very dark portion of panel 10. The second gives other reading from a larger part of panel 10, showing it to be a lot lighter than the small portion of panel 10 that is near panel 9.

POW_color[1] cropped 1.jpg

POW_color[1] cropped 2.jpg

The paints previously identified as C, D and E are not blue-greys in the stills (they are all brownish greys, with a hint of brown-green in small isolated areas). The only panels on the port side that are blue grey in the stills are those identified as paints A and B in this thread, and panel 9.

Though we cannot readily predict the actual colour of the paints from the stills, we can certainly delineate between those that are bluish and those that are not, and those that are dark and those that are not. Panel 9 was large enough to get good readings from in all stills. (The alternating dark-light patches in the stills are due to smudging of the image, perhaps from muck on the lens: you can see this most clearly at the waterline. The dark vertical line through panel 8 appears to be on the film itself. I took readings from those points (the 'bad' areas), but they are dubious. The clearest area is the one numbered 8 in the first workings image. Despite all of those factors, all readings of panel 9 show a blue-grey.)

This means that either:

- Panels 8 and 10 are both the same paint, as identified earlier in the thread, so panel 9 must be a sixth paint; or
- Panel 8 is paint A and panel 9 is paint B

My amateur opinion from taking hundreds of colour readings across all panels in the six stills is that all the dark arches (panels 8, 13 and 19) are paint A, and panel 9 is paint B. I note that the B&W photos can be used to support either argument, and perhaps because of panel 8's position, it is more weather-worn than the other dark arches further back on the hull, but that is speculation only. If nothing else, I am in no doubt that panel 9 is a blue-grey.

Regards,
Lindsay

[EJFoeth]

The capture here is actually quite good because it is next to a sailors white cap and I am assuming that is port side port side forward of the main turret and the pale colour is what we have possibly identified as MS3

Actually, the lighter patch is a combination of tones D and C, see insert bottom left

POW_25.jpg

[elcejay]

The capture here is actually quite good because it is next to a sailors white cap and I am assuming that is port side port side forward of the main turret and the pale colour is what we have possibly identified as MS3

Actually, the lighter patch is a combination of tones D and C, see insert bottom left

POW_25.jpg

It is the aft-most arch that we are seeing - this is one of the last stills showing the sailors towards the top of the ladder...

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 04016.jpg

But the delineation between the two paints under the arch is impossible to see...barely visible in the second and third stills below, to the point that knowing it is there seems to make me see it.

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03859.jpg

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03866.jpg

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03876.jpg

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting %281941%29 03876.jpg

And at Placentia from a distance. Again, barely visible - just a hint of being there...[sorry - I had uploaded a tif file - now replaced with jpg]

NH 67194-A detail.jpg

[elcejay]

Are we actually seeing all five paints in this still...

All paints A to E question.jpg

NH 67194-A detail.jpg

[Sutho]

Are we actually seeing all five paints in this still...

All paints A to E question.jpg

NH 67194-A detail.jpg

If it is aft how do we explain the different colour below the armoured belt behind the sailors doing the loading. It looked more like to me the long pointed thing more forward under A turret.

[508medway]

I'm confused, by long pointed thing, do you mean the boarding ladder?

One thought, in the attached photo there seems to be a distinct line. Could this line be simply a ridge where camouflage paint has been applied over the old boot topping? If so, could the fact that it is painted over black affect the colour and cause discolouration of the camouflage paint with possibly the black underneath starting to wear through/show through the camouflage paint? In other words, it would then be the same colour as above the line but discoloured.

[SovereignHobbies]

I'd bet money on D & E being the same colour of paint. It's either bleed-through from boot topping as Medway suggests, or just plain weathering from splash. Either way, I believe the modeller ought to be replicating that with weathering skills and not an additional colour of paint.

[dick]

A number of photos show that there were two colours under that arch amongst them this one:

[EJFoeth]

I have no doubt that the panel consists to two colours; however, I think the pic higher up has C at the far bottom left (just a few pixels); D and E are the same as far as I can tell.

[Sutho]

If that is the case then in that lower box it would be 507C and the presumed B6 that is in warship perspectives being the two lightest tones.

The picture I have added the arrows to. It appears to me that the lightest tone may also be midships as well meaning more of this paler colour on HMS Prince of Wales.

[elcejay]

A number of photos show that there were two colours under that arch amongst them this one:

[Edited to fix up failed attempts to attach two images]

Agreed, Dick. Here are some from earlier in the shot showing more along the waterline.

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03856.jpg

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03866.jpg

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03873.jpg

I do believe we can see the two paints in the last image, at least (my line is a very rough approximation)...

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03873a.jpg

I know they are very hard to distinguish Sovereign (James?), but I believe the two paints are there.

The 'pointy thing' that Sutho is referring to is perhaps the portion of the B panel that is so much darker than the rest of the B (markings added in yellow below). Is it possible that this is just a fresher coat of paint over a portion of the panel? It is not simply the angle of the hull playing tricks on us as there are places where the darker paint runs over the main face of the armour plate (marked by my arrows and question mark).

All paints A to E question.jpg

(Nothing is ever easy with this ship!)

Regards,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

If it is aft how do we explain the different colour below the armoured belt behind the sailors doing the loading. It looked more like to me the long pointed thing more forward under A turret.

Hello Sutho,

This image is of PoW at Placentia showing where the accommodation ladder is - same timeframe as the stills which are of US sailors passing foodstuffs over to the ship at Placentia. Sorry - I meant to state that when I posted the same image earlier - it gives us our reference point. (It also shows two light paints under the dark arch at that point.)

NH 67194-A detail.jpg

(From PoW service history http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... _Wales.htm, the ship arrived at Placentia on 9 Aug 1941 and... 'During the afternoon boats come over from the US ships carrying cartons for the crew of PRINCE OF WALES, each carton contained 200 cigarettes, � lb of cheese, two apples and a orange [I note some bananas in the footage too!] with a card from the President sending his compliments and best wishes. Also during the day the officers and men of both navies visited each others ships.' The ship departed on 13 Aug. I assume that the accommodation ladder would have remained where it was for that period.)

Cheers,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

I'm confused, by long pointed thing, do you mean the boarding ladder?

One thought, in the attached photo there seems to be a distinct line. Could this line be simply a ridge where camouflage paint has been applied over the old boot topping? If so, could the fact that it is painted over black affect the colour and cause discolouration of the camouflage paint with possibly the black underneath starting to wear through/show through the camouflage paint? In other words, it would then be the same colour as above the line but discoloured.

Hello Michael,

When I first saw the footage, I saw one paint below the dark arch. I believe now that there are two, but the delineation between them is barely there. The line of delineation is above what I agree with you to be the old boot topping.

James, I don't think it is splash as the two paints show up under that dark arch in too many photos, in Placentia, Iceland and Scapa, for it to be an illusion (not quite the right word, but hopefully it conveys my meaning). Here is one that EJ posted a while back - Iceland or Scapa? - (with his paint ID notations)...

POW_01.jpg

And here is a better attempt at marking the line between the two paints...

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03873b.jpg

There are 50 frames in the footage covering that area of the hull. I am happy to post them if they are of use.

On another note regarding apparent colours in the footage, the paint C panel looks like the portion of the paint B panel forward of the ladder. I am not suggesting that they are - they are definitely not the same paint - it is just a reminder to myself as as much as to everyone that even in a relatively close-up B&W image, things are not always what they seem...

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03948a.jpg

Here again is the crop of the ship at Placentia at the same time showing that B panel, as well as my current speculation on the paints in that area of the hull.

NH 67194-A detail cleanskin.jpg

NH 67194-A detail b.jpg

(If you missed the earlier post, the 29MB version of that image can be downloaded here http://www.history.navy.mil/our-collect ... 194-A.html)

Regards,
Lindsay

[SovereignHobbies]

A number of photos show that there were two colours under that arch amongst them this one:

[Edited to fix up failed attempts to attach two images]

Agreed, Dick. Here are some from earlier in the shot showing more along the waterline.

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03856.jpg

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03866.jpg

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03873.jpg

I do believe we can see the two paints in the last image, at least (my line is a very rough approximation)...

President To Prime Minister - Historic Meeting (1941) 03873a.jpg

I know they are very hard to distinguish Sovereign (James?), but I believe the two paints are there.

The 'pointy thing' that Sutho is referring to is perhaps the portion of the B panel that is so much darker than the rest of the B (markings added in yellow below). Is it possible that this is just a fresher coat of paint over a portion of the panel? It is not simply the angle of the hull playing tricks on us as there are places where the darker paint runs over the main face of the armour plate (marked by my arrows and question mark).

All paints A to E question.jpg

(Nothing is ever easy with this ship!)

Regards,
Lindsay

Ah I see what you mean. I thought the demarcation was supposedly the horizontal darkening just above the waterline there!

[elcejay]

Second last post for the day - apologies for bombarding you all.

Regarding panel 8, which I suspect to be paint A, I asked earlier about the potential for it to be degraded by wave action more severely than the other three dark arches. This image shows, at top, the starboard side of PoW underway at Force Z time in a relatively calm sea. For those less land-lubberly than me, the hydraulics of the bow seem to create a lot of wash right where panel 8 is on the opposite side (see bottom half of image - best one I have of the port side square on, sorry). Is that a reasonable assumption?

wave action on paint A port forward.jpg

I also note that the paint in this area of the hull is very hard worn in the images of PoW returning to Scapa after the Charter meeting (see image below).

65675049365_000437 cropped.jpg

So can we reasonably say that panel 8 is a chipped/faded paint A in many of the B&W photos, and therefore the definitely blue-grey panel 9 is paint B?

Regards,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

Hi Dick,

This is a fascinating discussion. I know who supplied the samples to WEM way back when, but it is possible there was a misidentification.

Do you have a rate book recipe for B5? I'd like to make some up just out of curiosity.

My scans of AP507B and the Colourcoats B5 are quite similar.

AP507B:


B5:

Hello James,

To add to this discussion, I am wondering if the Farnsdale B5 chip on S&S RN WW2 Set 2 is actually a more accurate representation of B5 given its source from the ship's paint locker. It is certainly closer to what we see in the KGV colour images posted earlier, and to Dick's swatch of 'real' B5 (below) than the chip in set 1.

Richard B5.jpg

Could John perhaps tell us where the Set 1 B5 sample originated from? It would be a big help.

Cheers,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

Forgive me if this has been posted already, but I often read the supposition that PoW gained her white funnel top on the formation of Force Z, perhaps to confuse her with Repulse. PoW, however, had the white funnel top in Sep 41 as part of OP HALBERD in the Med. Here are two IWM shots (copyright to IWM, posted for reference purposes only, file names are the IWM numbers). Of interest, Rodney is in the background in the second shot.

A 5737.jpg

A 5749.jpg

To my knowledge, we have photos of PoW in disruptive pattern that cover three operations and the periods at Scapa in between:

- Post Denmark Strait working up period at Scapa after joining Home Fleet from Rosyth, Jun - Jul 41
- RIVIERA (Atlantic Charter: Scapa-Iceland-Newfoundland and return), 4-18 Aug 41
- Home Fleet Scapa to 15 Sep 41;
- HALBERD 16 Sep - 1 Oct 41 (Scapa-Clyde-Gibraltar-Med and return);
- Short period with Home Fleet Scapa; and then
- Force Z (Scapa-Freetown-Capetown-Port Louis-Colombo-Singapore-S. China Sea).

Given that the panels may have changed in shape or colour (Raven, (Warship Perspectives 4, RN Supplemental, p28), perhaps we need to start being specific in which version of the scheme we are discussing?

In the hope of finding that there might be more imagery out there than I yet know of:

- I know of no photos from the post-Rosyth working up period.
- I see RIVIERA as the easiest one to solve given the media coverage. We have a high res photo of the stern, reasonable photos of the port side, and the footage of both sides of the ship, albeit some are rather grainy.
- I know of only one shot from the interim period at Scapa - the best shot of the port side where the paint seems to have been refreshed after RIVIERA: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205170702
- I know of only starboard shots from Halberd (the two posted above, and another one on IWM at Scapa just after HALBERD http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140117
- I know of only two starboard shots from the Force Z period (the two at Capetown which are very dark in the only copies I have), and the many port-side arriving/departing Singapore shots from IWM and AWM
- and there is this shot from EJ's earlier post, which I don't know the time frame of, but suspect to be HALBERD (aerial shot as per those above, and white funnel):

POW_02.jpg

I think I will focus on RIVIERA for now.

Regards,
Lindsay

[JCRAY]

Only the front quarter of the rear funnel was white with Force Z.
HTH John