HMS Prince of Wales

[elcejay]

Only the front quarter of the rear funnel was white with Force Z.
HTH John

Thanks John,

(Your post crossed my edit - I took out the suggestion of a panel change on the port side during HALBERD period - the ship was just lower in the water than in the Placentia shots, making some panels reach under/to the waterline on comparison. Landlubber error!)

I am now a little confused. I have images of PoW arriving Singapore showing the upper front of the rear funnel in white, and of her leaving Singapore showing the upper rear of the rear funnel in white. I have a shot that I believe to be Singapore showing the white band completely around the rear funnel, with a darkened patch of, perhaps, weathering.

HMS_Prince_Of_Wales_arriving_in_Singapore.jpg

HMS_Prince_of_Wales_Singapore_(AWM 041562).jpg

4503103222_1a81fdb6b1_o cropped.jpg

Hello all,

The images of PoW departing Singapore show her with deteriorated paint - is it right to assume that she did not have time to repaint between arrival and departure, or at least had no time to complete the task?

Cheers,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

Interesting CGI re-enactment (Japanese).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buV7IuN8i9I

Regards,
Lindsay

[mister me]

Hi

does this model built just after WW2, in IWM collection, be credible for being an example of what could be true MS1, B5 and 507C color ?

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018856

[508medway]

There are plenty of Julian Glossop models at the IWM which could give a range of colours from the B15 on the launches to 507C on Vanguard.

What we don�t know from the on line records is when most of them were made.




http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018240

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018236

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018855

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018855

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018368


There are also many Norman Ough models held there too.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018368

The NMM at Greenwich used to have quite a few of his models and dioramas on display. I saw some in their reserve collection as well years back.

[elcejay]

Thanks for those links 'mister me' and Michael,

Many of the Glossop models have dates attached - 1947 and 1949 typically. So they are quite contemporary. Here is the listing of Glossop models at IWM (where he worked until the 50s, if I understand correctly) showing some of the dates:

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/searc ... sop&query=

I saw the posts on this topic in the Repulse page in CASF and they did call attention to detail on some ships Glossop built, but understandable errors, it seems. So how accurately did these models portray the paints on the ships? Would he have paid the same attention to that as he did to the dimensions, etc?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chtTv4Znils

Regards,
Lindsay

[508medway]

I do like the way they are wearing suits and cuff links to make models.

One worry is measuring up rather than being given real plans although that might just be a show biz effect.

NMM list these Norman Ough models. By the comment, Warwick and may be Queen Elizabeth would be in an early version of 507B.

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67463.html

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67405.html

From others we have, first cab off the rank is KGV in 507A/B?

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67512.html

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67536.html


http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67440.html


http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67452.html

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67533.html

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collection ... 67523.html

[elcejay]

Hello Dick,

Would you have swatches of MS1 and 2? I have been studying this Glossop model http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30018360 of Nelson in the scheme Raven describes as being (dark to light) MS1, MS2, MS3 and 507C. It looks nothing like the images in Man O' War 3 (p26), but your MS3 swatch looks promising.

I would value your opinion on whether the model presents the paints as you would see them. To me, the paints look like MS1, your MS3 swatch, 507c and either your MS4 or MS4A. Is it worth further analysis?

Regards,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

TR 325 throws me too. The blue paint on the barbette seems to be too light for B5...

The true colour of B5 is pretty much what you see in shadow to the immediate left of the Bren.

B5, post 1 of 2 [edited 29 May 16 - see my post re my colour scans of S&S chips, 29 May 16 - those scans do not affect the finding presented here, i.e. that Richard's B5 chip appears to be a very good representation of B5 as it ties with ADM 212/124 data, IWM image TR 325, and Julian Glossop's models, as per IWM collection images]

Hello all,

Following up on Dick's advice above, I have tried to unravel B5 using TR 325, some Glossop models (HMS Eagle in B5, HMS Valiant in B5 and HMS Biter in what I believe to be B30), [reference to S&S chips deleted in edit of 29 May 16 as the scans used were not true - see image below], and the swatch of B5 Dick produced and linked to earlier in the thread. This produced some interesting results.

The B5 in the shaded area beside the Bren in TR 325 gives a colour reading of #181c2c. A very dark blue, as expected. I then found a shade scale for that hue (http://www.colorhexa.com/181c2c) and plotted the colours of all the above listed samples against it. HMS Valiant's B5 is a bit too green. [reference to S&S chip readings deleted 29 May 16]. You will note that the lightest shade of the TR 325 B5 is almost a perfect match for Dick's B5 swatch. [another reference to S&S chip readings deleted 29 May 16]. The Eagle and Biter B5/B30 are somewhat lighter, but to me they are in the same hue, and under the lighting conditions in which IWM took the photos, perhaps it is reasonable to say that they should appear to be lighter.

Noting that the TR 325 reading that I took was in fairly heavy shadow, that reading is darker than 'true' B5.

With all that in mind, I tend to believe that Dick's swatch is a very accurate presentation of B5. [Image edited - I had omitted to add the 'tint' colours to the right of the 'shades'. I have had to truncate the 'tint' colour line to fit it into the 1200 pixel limit.] [Image edited again 29 May 16 to cross out my personal scans of S&S B5 and B5 Farndale, as they are not true colour. This does not affect the other colour readings.]

B5 unravelling 29 May 16.jpg

[Edit of 26 May 16, 1900K hrs]

I should have thought of this last night, but had only just stumbled across the http://www.colorhexa.com website, so it didn't dawn on me!

Sean had sent me the red/green/blue percentage values from ADM 212/124. B15 is 26.8% red, 27.2% green and 46% blue. I could convert RGB percent to RGB 255 values for the hue, but I could not account for the reflection factor, so I ended up with many swatches that looked almost identical. The tint/shade output from colorhexa.com can help us there.

If you want some methodology, I will add that now, but if you want to skip to the punchline, below is an image showing what the ADM 212/124 RGB percent values give us for colour hex #444575, which is the closest I can get at present to the value of B15's RGB percent value. I am talking here about a colour that is 0.1% off from the stated RGB values. To put that into perspective, it is generally accepted that anything within 2 points value of another colour in the RGB255 scale is visually indiscernible. What I give you here is within 2.2 points of the 'real' colour - the difference can be disregarded. As you can see, the hue and tint/shade scale of ADM 212/124 B15 is an exceptionally close match to the image posted above.

I.e. the B5 in the KGV photo, Dick's B5 swatch, Glossop's B5 on HMS Eagle, the two S&S B5 chips and ADM 212/124 B15 RGB% values give colour readings that are close enough to be described as being of the same hue.

Methodology: ADM 212/124 RGB percent values were converted to RGB 255 values (simple calculation). The RGB 255 values were input to scalemodeldb.com to get a colour hex number (unfortunately, this program does not allow decimal points, so I rounded out). The colour hex number was entered into colorhexa.com to get the tint and shade scale images. I have also captured the RGB percent data returned by colorhexa.com so that you can see how close to ADM 212/124 the returned figures are.

B5 unravelling pt 2.jpg

This still does not tell us where on the tint/shade scale B15 sits. The next step I will take is to follow the same methodology for the other paints listed in ADM 212/124. I have done two already - they all sit at the same point on the shade/tint scale (because we can't take into account the 'brightness' through straight RGB255 conversions). But if we use Dick's B5 swatch as a benchmark, we can then use the proportionate reflectance values to tell us where the other paints sit on that scale.

Regards,
Lindsay

[elcejay]

B5 post 2 of 2

Here is Glossop's 1949 model of Eagle - 507A, B5, 507C according to Raven, Warship Perspectives Vol 2, pg 12, along with B&W photos of same. All are copyright IWM, posted for reference only.

A 7583.jpg

MOD 171b.jpg

A 7585.jpg

MOD 171a.jpg

And here is how light these same paints can look when seen at a more acute angle. The first image (A 7854) is in the same series as the two above - same day, same same photo shoot. You can still see the boats alongside her to starboard that you can see in A 7585.

A 7584.jpg

A 7837.jpg

(A hi res image a few moments before/after A 7837 can be found here http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205119473)

Regards,
Lindsay

[dick]

Dear Lindsay,

I think you may be getting there with this analysis.

I did not look closely enough at that shadowed area on the barbette in TR325 when making the comment that it was the "true" colour. Looking at it more closely now and as your RGB analysis has identified it is far too dark/less "blue" than I meant to suggest B5 was. Also when I wrote "true" what I should have written was "fresh/unfaded".

But I have a few questions - its probably down to PC monitor setting differences:

Are you working from actual S&S chips or are you working from an on-line source (and if so which one) as my S&S chips are not at all the same as those in the first horizontal bar in your first illustration above?

Which of my two B5 swatches is it that in that first horizontal bar in your first illustration above? That is spot on how I imagine fresh B5 to have been.

How exactly are you converting the RGB values from ADM 212/124 into 255 values? Multiplying by 2.55?

Best wishes

[elcejay]

Hello Richard,

Thank you for your response. I hope that I have answered all questions adequately, but please let me know if any clarification is needed.

I did not look closely enough at that shadowed area on the barbette in TR325 when making the comment that it was the "true" colour. Looking at it more closely now and as your RGB analysis has identified it is far too dark/less "blue" than I meant to suggest B5 was. Also when I wrote "true" what I should have written was "fresh/unfaded".

Thank you. I did make the assumption that you were referring to the hue of the paint in the shadowed area on the barbette in TR 325, rather than its shade/tone in that image.

Are you working from actual S&S chips or are you working from an on-line source (and if so which one) as my S&S chips are not at all the same as those in the first horizontal bar in your first illustration above?

I am using the S&S chipsets themselves (recently acquired), scanned and converted to jpg files for personal use in colour analysis via a Canon CanoScan LiDE 210 scanner. Here is how the B5 samples appeared when scanned (this image is presented for research purposes only, the paint chips are copyright to Snyder and Short Enterprises).

B5 copyright Snyder and Short.jpg

Which of my two B5 swatches is it that in that first horizontal bar in your first illustration above? That is spot on how I imagine fresh B5 to have been.

Below is the swatch that I used. It is the one that you linked to in an earlier post, thank you. Does this reflect the shade/tone well by comparison to your physical sample?

Richard B5.jpg

How exactly are you converting the RGB values from ADM 212/124 into 255 values? Multiplying by 2.55?

Effectively, yes. I entered all the ADM 212/124 data into an Excel spreadsheet (thank you again for that info, Michael), triple checked it, then converted the RGB percent values to RGB 255 values with the formula 255 x a% = x, where �a� is the ADM 212/124 red, green or blue value. This is the same as multiplying the ADM 212/124 values by 2.55, of course, and that would have been a bit simpler to do, had my mind been as sharp at the time!

Here are the figures that I used:

RGB percent to 255.jpg

Once I had the colour hex identifier, I entered it into colorhexa.com to get the shade/tone scale.

I must state here that all of this analysis assumes that 'B5 = B15', as the values I have used are for 'B15'. I do believe, however, that the assumption is well grounded due to the corroborating evidence, as outlined above (Glossop's models, Bone's painting of Rodney, IWM image TR 325 of KGV all showing B5 looking like this), and as presented elsewhere in this and other threads (e.g. medway508's posts re CB 3098, Table 5 where B15 is listed as corresponding to B5).

Best Regards,
Lindsay

[dick]

Dear Lindsay,

Thank you.

Forgive me, but two more questions if I may:

Do you have any feel for the age of your S&S chip sheets. Did you buy them recently direct from them or are they passed on to you from someone who might have had them for some years?

How did you generate the Munsell values?

Best wishes

[dick]

Below is the swatch that I used. It is the one that you linked to in an earlier post, thank you. Does this reflect the shade/tone well by comparison to your physical sample?

Sorry, in my fury I overlooked your question.

I am assuming you have the WEM Colourcoats B5 and can calibrate from that?

Here is the ADM 212/124 B5 beside WEM B5.

Real B5 v WEM B5 - Copy.JPG

It is a few years now since I took the photo and I think the camera/artificial light revved up the original B5 a bit. Next time I go to Kew I must try to re-photograph it under natural light.

But this is a note I made when looking at it and comparing it to WEM B5: "Darker and more towards a dull navy blue"

Best wishes

[elcejay]

Dear Lindsay,

Thank you.

Forgive me, but two more questions if I may:

Do you have any feel for the age of your S&S chip sheets. Did you buy them recently direct from them or are they passed on to you from someone who might have had them for some years?

How did you generate the Munsell values?

Best wishes

Hello Richard,

Further questions are not a problem at all. I really am very pleased for the level of scrutiny as I do not want to mislead anyone by making claims that can't be substantiated.

Firstly, in the process of typing this, I saw your post regarding your B5 swatch come through, thank you. I suspected that it might be a bit lighter than 'true' due to the method of capturing the image (photo not scan). I don't have Colourcoats B5 (no store seems to have the key RN WW2 paints in stock in Australia at present), just the S&S B5 chip. Can I calibrate to that?

Onto the other questions...

My S&S chip sets are new. Direct from S&S, received from Cindy two weeks ago (very prompt and friendly service, thank you S&S).

The modern Munsell values come from encycolorpedia.com. The Munsell values in the table I posted equate to the RGB 255 values for the ADM212/124 conversions. They don't take into account the brightness factor - I am as yet uncertain how to do that. So from the table I posted above, the straight conversion of RGB% to RGB255 for B15 gives us a modern Munsell approximation of 7.5PB 3/6. Your B5 swatch (the one in my previous post) gives an approximate modern Munsell value of 5PB 4/6 (see http://encycolorpedia.com/4a628d - this gives the Munsell approximation at the bottom of the 'color space conversions' data on the right-hand side of the page).

Below are images of a scan of your swatch on scalemodeldb.com (values differ, depending on where you scan the image, of course, but they come out in the same Munsell hue) from which I get the hex code (circled in the first image - a cropped screenshot) and enter it into encycolorpedia.com (second image - a cropped screen shot) with Munsell value circled).

Richards B5 colour reading a.jpg

Richards B5 colour reading b.jpg

Again, I repeat for clarity that though I can convert RGB% to RGB255, I can't account for the brightness factor in ADM 212/124. I really am not yet certain how to do that, and I need to do so before going further with these ADM212/124 values. B5 has been easy because I had your swatch and your interpretation of TR 325 to work from, and they 'matched' what I could see in Glossop's and Bone's work, so I had a benchmark of sorts. With the remaining ADM 212/124-listed paints, I don't yet have a level of confidence.

On top of that is my concern about how well other ADM 212/124-listed paints correspond to the pre-CB 3098 equivalents. Again, I am comfortable that B5 = B15, but though I know the corresponding paints for the others, I am not sure of their levels of equivalence. This is a topic that Michael (medway508) has been helping me with, but it seems like two steps forward, three steps back a lot of the time (that's not due to Michael by any means - it is due to the problems with the evidence, of course).

Regards,
Lindsay

[EJFoeth]

My scans of the same colors, color-accurate scan at our multimedia department. Note, B5 at left is what is in the WEM tin and is a near-perfect match for AP507B from the same charts.

[508medway]

I don't have Colourcoats B5 (no store seems to have the key RN WW2 paints in stock in Australia at present), Looks like dave has B5 & B15 in stock.

http://www.creativemodels.com.au/shopma ... ROYAL+NAVY

[elcejay]

Thanks for that, EJ. I too noted the S&S B5/507B similarity and thought I would leave questions on that for another day (I am aware of the posts in this and other threads that 507B should be the same hue as 507A, but glossier, and I have the Admiralty records posted by Michael on same). I will try and use your scan to calibrate for now.

Thanks for the news re Creative, Michael - it must have been 507C I was after that wasn't in stock. I have ordered B5, B6 and the MS series that were in stock. I have been using acrylics up until now (well, back in the 70's it was enamels, but since my model making 'rebirth' it has been the acrylics!)

Cheers,
Lindsay

[Sutho]

I am not that an expert on paints that some above are but are you suggesting that the old WEM tins I have that B15 is a better match for what you think B5 really looked like now there seems to be a consensus that there was some mistake in getting the hobby paint produced.

[elcejay]

My scans of the same colors, color-accurate scan at our multimedia department. Note, B5 at left is what is in the WEM tin and is a near-perfect match for AP507B from the same charts.

EJ, when you get the time, could you use the scalemodeldb.com tool at 25x25 blocks and take a reading at the centre point of each of those two swatches for me, please? I just want to check that we get the same readings, give or take a point.

B5 R,G,B: 104, 122, 127

B5 Farndale R,G,B: 102, 122, 137

By eyeball, your scan looked to be more accurate than mine, so I have recalibrated my scanner and have come up with this - better, but not quite true colour, I believe. I will go and get true colour scans to use from now on.

B5 copyright Snyder and Short EJ and scanner recalibrated.jpg

(Readers, please know that this does not affect the findings from the images of Glossop models and Richard's B5 in previous posts (my 'B5 1 of 2' and 'B5 2 of 2'), they are from on-line readings of digital images that you can repeat yourselves via the websites I provided links for, but please ignore my S&S chip swatches as they were read by my scanner and are less true than I had thought. I.e. the finding that Richard's B5 swatch appears to be very close to 'true' remains relevant as it does not rely on my scans of S&S chips via my scanner - I put them in out of interest and will now edit the posts accordingly.)



Regards,
Lindsay

[dick]

I am not that an expert on paints that some above are but are you suggesting that the old WEM tins I have that B15 is a better match for what you think B5 really looked like now there seems to be a consensus that there was some mistake in getting the hobby paint produced.

Please see my pm to you. Best wishes