New Royal Navy B5 and B15 paints from Colourcoats

[SovereignHobbies]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It has taken a long time, but we have just released our new and updated B5 / B15 model paint from Colourcoats. Yes, we have strayed from the Snyder & Short chips. I am sure many will think I am mad for doing so, but I am utterly convinced I am correct in doing so and will be releasing a free to download PDF as soon as the four forum members whose names are on the front are happy with the final format, however we agreed the colour itself two months ago. The PDF will explain the rationale, the references (that I'd encourage readers to go see for themselves rather than just say they don't believe me) and the methods used to arrive at this shade.

I realise the implications of such a drastic shift from the currently held beliefs about B5 and B15. It does mean that some conjecture and agreed colour schemes including B5 determined by analysis of black and white photographs may be incorrect after all - still that is no reason to perpetuate what I believe to be superseded information. Our new colour matches our understanding of unweathered paint. In practise they could and did lose their strong hue at sea due to chalking and wear.






Available now in the UK, and within the next few weeks in the USA:
https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/prod ... -dark-blue

[JCRAY]

Thank you so much for your efforts. We will all appreciate some clarifications on the muddy swamp of RN WW2 colours.
Thanks!
John

[ah3000mk1]

I also appreciate the scholarship, science, and effort that goes into improving our understanding of naval camouflage. But, mostly, I just enjoy the fact I may get a better reason to build two versions of my favorite ships!

One day, 'll have to take up weathering...

[SovereignHobbies]

It probably does spark the question as to whether said ships really were painted with B5, or B6, or a bluish grey like Home Fleet Grey based upon the idea that B5 was grey and identified on the ship thus

What we can see for sure was that B5 was used on perhaps half of the 1942 vintage disruptive schemes for smaller vessels such as destroyers and coastal craft. I am fairly happy that B5 was present on HMS Malaya, and probably HMS Biter and I think Eagle too.

There are some others like Rodney and Prince of Wales that I keep changing my mind back and forth about at the moment. That's not really the purpose of my expercise though which is to align Colourcoats with the best references out there.

All I am cautioning against is taking this new shade as a license to dress up any warship in an attractive deep blue colour. I am confident this is what B5 looked like, but I am not confident that all prior suggestions of colour schemes involving B5 are correct. I hope that makes sense.

[EJFoeth]

Good match with the pic here. Looking forward to the pdf!

[SovereignHobbies]

Hi folks,

Please find here a link to the PDF I promised. It's a 1.16Mb file and 14 pages long.

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/page ... b5-and-b15

[JCRAY]

Thank you! I've bought a lot of the WEM colorcoats over the last decade to decide some of these issues with the nomenclature. A lack of RN colour photo's has made it almost impossible.
Hopefully, research will continue.
John

[SovereignHobbies]

Thank you! I've bought a lot of the WEM colorcoats over the last decade to decide some of these issues with the nomenclature. A lack of RN colour photo's has made it almost impossible.
Hopefully, research will continue.
John

Hi John,

Continue it shall. There is a lot of material gathered. It has proven easier to deal with one colour at a time however. Some things are documented well whilst there are holes elsewhere but it is easy to make assumptions and convince ourselves they are fact. It's also a lot easier to prove an anomaly exists than to make a robust case for a resolution. Anyone can hypothesise what might be the case but one then looks for evidence to support a pre-conceived idea and bend things to make them fit rather than look for facts and see where they lead to. Then of course when a new proposal is presented it is likely to be met with scepticism unless it can be supported by a fairly watertight argument which addresses all of the doubts.

We are all quite pleased with the conclusions and supporting document for B5 and B15, and aim for a similar quality of work hereafter. I hope we are not vexed by any colour along the way but if we are we shall come clean with a "we don't know" rather than peddle more controversy into the public domain.

I'll finish by saying not everything known about RN colours is up for challenge, but there are several. If anyone is a stickler for accuracy and can't wait, I'd suggest building a destroyer squadron in the Mediterranean or Far East from around 1937 to 1940 - because we're quite happy that 507C Mediterranean Grey is what everyone thinks it is

[JCRAY]

I thought B5 became B15 when it was applied to the decks of coastal forces, thought it was a type of Deck Paint, less slippery.....
What do I know?
John

[SovereignHobbies]

To be fair, it has only recently become clear.

Precisely what the motivation was to rename the paints may never be fully explained, but it's clear firstly that they wanted harder wearing paints, but also it's clear that communicating information about colours to overseas locations, e.g. UK to Australia and back was a drawn out process that required physical samples sent to accompany letters discussing them. Whilst suggested schemes for destroyers and smaller are evident, it is also clear from official documention that more senior officers on larger warships had some lattitude to design their own schemes as circumstances required. It is apparent from all the correspondence in the files referenced in the above that the renotation was intended to simplify and improve the common understanding of what the LRV was of each available colour. B for blue, G for grey and the digit(s) following give the LRV. AFO2106/43 simultaneously wheels these out and gives the fleet the new range of colours they were to use and the instructions to make them all using the standard pigment oil pastes and oils they carried in stores - all whilst delivering better paint that lasted a bit longer.

It means that modern day prescriptions of B5 (or any other early war name) after spring 1943 and prescriptions of B15 (or any other B or G series paint) before spring 1943 are anachronyms and perhaps worth treating with caution because they have to have come from something subjective, interpretational and then from someone possibly not aware of the evolution of the paints and how they were referred to.

The only exceptions to the above that we have found that I remember are clarifications after the above changeover date that if struggling to obtain G10 or G45, the ship could use their Rate Book of Naval Stores formulae for 507A and 507C respectively, going on to state that they were the same shades.

[Sutho]

The only issue I have to raise at present is on page 6 of the file where a photo was used as reference material of what is claimed to be on HMS King George V.

While the photo is clear and you can get a glimpse of the blue colour in bright sunlight and shade, I can also get exactly the same colour result by taking my 1/350 scale HMS Hood painted in WEM AP507B out into the glaring sun and it would look almost identical to that blue.

I have always been of the opinion that contemporary artworks can be somewhat helpful as well as they give an impression of what the artist saw.

The colour chip on page 7 of the reference is what I would put most weight on at this stage.

I am going to need a bit of time to thoroughly examine all of it.

I would not dispose of the older tins or formulas and would suggest continuing to market them as an older version or previous version for people who may need to touch up models or want to mix and experiment for their own needs. I think the existing paints that WEM passed on to you need to be investigated thoroughly like detective work to establish where they came from and what they were used for. They may be valuable in the future as more research becomes available.

[SovereignHobbies]

Hi Sutho,

I have stocks of RN15 here still but the old RN07 sold out 6 months ago.

The photographs and art work are mentioned for two reasons; firstly they provided motivation to undertake the research exercise but are not research themselves. Secondly they are there to help illustrate how difficult it is to identify colours from old pictures and black and white in particular.

On to the research itself. If the reader takes away 3 key messages I'd hope it is these:

1) Two dependent sources in two different countries were found which held publically available but controlled and untampered original samples - they were both strong blue

2) We found the AD.29 report from Teddington with colour measurements in a still recognised colour space which included B5. It was strong blue

3) We found mixing instructions for real wartime B15 in the Admiralty Fleet Order introducing the paints to the fleet and made samples up. The recipe gives a strong blue

As a business owner having B5 off the market for an extended period whilst our competitors happily sold away was painful.

I suspended manufacture of RN07 because we found more and more entirely unconnected ways of getting a strong blue answer without introducing any new assumptions or what-ifs and absolutely nothing which led us back to grey.

[SovereignHobbies]

Thanks for that. I figured I was safest posting it in the Traders' section

[EJFoeth]

With this image as a reference in the PDF for B5

http://s2.postimg.org/k8g3hjh7d/HMSHesperus.jpg

what are the other colours? B6 with MS4A/AP507C? And is that is indeed B6, is the HMS Farndale version of B6 in the S&S colour charts a good estimate?

Both B5 and (this?) B6 seems to match the records ADM-212-124.

[Sutho]

With this image as a reference in the PDF for B5

http://s2.postimg.org/k8g3hjh7d/HMSHesperus.jpg

what are the other colours? B6 with MS4A/AP507C? And is that is indeed B6, is the HMS Farndale version of B6 in the S&S colour charts a good estimate?

Both B5 and (this?) B6 seems to match the records ADM-212-124.

Can you save and label the photo and post again with what colours you think they are.

Are you suggesting that the blue shade below the H57 is in fact B6 and are you thinking the dark blue splinter pattern below the aft mast and searchlight platform is B5

[EJFoeth]

Basically, yes. I added the references (using Paint, doing this from work...). Just jotting down some thoughts.

HMSHesperus2.jpg

It seems the patch on the bow is different, a less blueish gray.



Of course I'm thinking about this pic again



where it appears B5 could still be a match in its new format (perhaps even better than before).

[mister me]

HMSHesperus2.jpg

For what it's worth, I would have interpreted those colors a bit differently :

-it seems the tables in the present PDF (extracted from CAFO 679) don't mention any use of B6.
-what you propose to be B6 seems (for me) to be somewhat greenish and not so light. so Ms3 ? or even Ms2 or Ms4 ?
-supposed B5 seems a bit dark, as the general lighting conditions seems to be sunny. i think B5 should have appeared a bit more lighter ? something more like the water ? then I would tell this is in fact here 507a/b (dark HF grey) ?
-ok for 507c/Ms4a

why do i think this ?

-the PDF states that line 8 of light admiralty type colour associations is 507a-507c-ms4a-ms3 : here my interpretation of colors should begin to be in a possible range of associations.
-the PDF colour associations dont give a possible range of associations using B5 as darkest, with Ms3 AND a lighter colour (typically 507c or Ms4a)
-however, the PDF colour associations give a possible range using B5 with Ms2 and a lighter colour (507c/Ms4a) in the 3rd line of light admiralty type.

so I would tell this :

-if the blue in this picture is truly B5, then the what looks like to be an intermediate shade would not be B6, but shall be MS2 or Ms4.
-if the intermediate shade is Ms3, then the blue shall in fact be 507a (which is also somewhat blueish, no ?)

not sure if i clearly explained my thinking...

[mister me]

very interesting research work from sovereign hobbies !

[EJFoeth]

The working theory of Sovereign Hobbies et al. is that Hesperus is shown in B5; so I'm following that reasoning here (what-if if you will) Several admiralty light schemes allow for B5, 507C, MS4a, and intermediate or dark nearly always includes MS1 and MS2. Perhaps Hesperus is showing MS4A and AP507C, a more common combination.

(Once more I'm running ahead of the results on other paints that is no doubt coming but I'm curious and uncharacteristically impatient)

[SovereignHobbies]

We deliberately didn't (well, it was Richard's view which on reflection I agreed with) speculate on the other colours on there.

The one you think is B6 though EJ, I have to admit I just "saw" as Home Fleet Grey and thought no more of it!

What I found of interest is that the dark panel at the bow is a different shade on the colour photo (being warmer / less blue) but on black and white it looks identical to the shade you think is B6 and I assumed was HFG.