New Royal Navy B5 and B15 paints from Colourcoats

[Sutho]

Basically, yes. I added the references (using Paint, doing this from work...). Just jotting down some thoughts.

HMSHesperus2.jpg

It seems the patch on the bow is different, a less blueish gray.



Of course I'm thinking about this pic again



where it appears B5 could still be a match in its new format (perhaps even better than before).

I think I can see the direction you are going with this and I think it has a lot to do with the only colour video capture that exists of HMS Prince of Wales that we know of.

I am still trying to come to terms with some things being a perfectionist and having glass cabinets with 1/350 scale ships fully built with rigging, photo etch, wooden decking it is rather hard to accept that all the $1000's of dollars spent could be wasted on incorrect paint. It would cost a significant amount to fix too.

[SovereignHobbies]

Just for clarity and I hope it's obvious, but, we didn't discuss Prince of Wales during this specific piece of research.

We knew there were original samples of known providence and we knew there were documents to piece together which would start to explain the evolution of paints. What we found has made us question the current wisdom of several shades but to be scientific, methodical and clear on what we're doing we started with one particular colour in its own right because the material we found consistently and directly contradicted what B5 was otherwise thought to look like.

I don't know for certain whether HMS Prince of Wales had this shade of blue on it, and for the purpose of correcting the Colourcoats RN07 product the Prince of Wales is irrelevant and so is every other ship. What's important is that we have found what we consider to be overwhelming evidence that B5 and B15 have been misunderstood to be bluish greys for a long time whilst all evidence that every person reading may go and see for themselves says it was strong blue. That was our objective - determine what colour B5 and B15 really were.

Whether a cabinet full of model ships needs to be started over is a whole different discussion because that reopens all the debates about what colours were really on those ships. Were they really B5 and B15 but that colour should now be blue and not grey? Were they actually painted in grey but someone thought that was what B5 and B15 looked like and wrote that name down on that basis? Unless there was a genuine Admiralty document saying a specific ship was painted with B5 or B15 at a specific time period, then it would be wise to treat all colour schemes with suspicion. I am sure it is not the case that a modeller need simply replace grey with blue on any model who's paint guide calls up B5 - they're all at risk of being wrong unless it's written down in black and white by someone who definitely was clear on what B5 actually was - and that really narrows it down to someone in the Royal Navy at the time, writing it on formal correspondence.

We intend to work through a few more shades, produce more of these little documents and ultimately determine what we believe to be a complete RN colour palette tracing its origins back to documented evidence that we can name and you can go and view yourselves.

[EJFoeth]

I fully agree with your reasoning and for individual ships the colour selection needs to be revisited for the new B5. The discussion on PoW in particular should (and will be ) continued in the relevant thread.

And I certainly do not mind a change in perspective; I've had quite a fair share of errors revealed when new material surfaces or with people taking a closer look at what we thought we knew. So I might have put the wrong shade on my Hood model... too bad. I do science work; getting corrected is part of the job description

[mister me]

impressed that HFG (507a/b) can seem lighter than B5/B15. I would have thought that a reflectance of 10 (as G10 or 507a/b HFG) would appear darker than a reflectance of 15 (B5/B15).
does that mean that a strong saturated blue would appear darker than something "simply" grey ?

however, waiting for more infos about all those colours reinterpretations !

seems I have to build IJN/FRA/USN/DKM for a while before switching back to RN before being sure about good colours of my planned camo schemes.

[SovereignHobbies]

No on reflection it shouldn't appear lighter (old fashioned B&W films not withstanding). Maybe EJ is right. As I said, I "saw" HFG and thought no further.

[Sutho]

I fully agree with your reasoning and for individual ships the colour selection needs to be revisited for the new B5. The discussion on PoW in particular should (and will be ) continued in the relevant thread.

And I certainly do not mind a change in perspective; I've had quite a fair share of errors revealed when new material surfaces or with people taking a closer look at what we thought we knew. So I might have put the wrong shade on my Hood model... too bad. I do science work; getting corrected is part of the job description

At this stage I think Prince of Wales is for another time if it was painted in that colour or another. That is why I think some of the original mixes could be kept. If the Royal Navy did in fact mix paints like the 50/50 mix of 507A with 507C to get the medium grey I would like to see what that actually looks like and if it resembled the WEM original tins. Also I would like to see what a 50/50 mix of 507A would look like with a mix of white or RN white just too see if any of those match some paints WEM had that Sovereign will replace.

As for my HMS Hood it is staying in its colour as is, I will not be changing it. I do not believe it was painted entirely in the dark home fleet grey. I am permanently leaving my HMS Hood as is.

[SovereignHobbies]

FWIW it's not certain that either Snyder & Short AP507A or AP507B and therefore current Colourcoats RN01 or RN02 (and by extension any other RN paint products from other brands who copied the same source; Hataka, Lifecolor, etc) are good representations of Home Fleet Grey.

Whilst I understand the clamour and eagerness to jump straight in with both feet and try to reappraise warship colours, B5 and B15 is only the first we have tackled. I think any re-assessment is a waste of time right now and furthermore it's a waste of time wondering what different mixes of Colourcoats (or any other) paint might look like. There is more primary source research to be done.

Don't worry about me and my paint formulae. That's my business. I can match and rematch as and when the notion pleases me. The S&S B5 and B15 data will not be the basis for another Colourcoats product.

[Sutho]

FWIW it's not certain that either Snyder & Short AP507A or AP507B and therefore current Colourcoats RN01 or RN02 (and by extension any other RN paint products from other brands who copied the same source; Hataka, Lifecolor, etc) are good representations of Home Fleet Grey.

Whilst I understand the clamour and eagerness to jump straight in with both feet and try to reappraise warship colours, B5 and B15 is only the first we have tackled. I think any re-assessment is a waste of time right now and furthermore it's a waste of time wondering what different mixes of Colourcoats (or any other) paint might look like. There is more primary source research to be done.

Don't worry about me and my paint formulae. That's my business. I can match and rematch as and when the notion pleases me. The S&S B5 and B15 data will not be the basis for another Colourcoats product.

Are you able to list what the suspect colours are in the Royal Navy colour list.

The creation of the new flight deck grey or bronze grey worked from the precise formula so I think the only way you will know for sure is if you can find all the mixing formulas for the paints the Royal Navy had. Also the paints today in 2017 that you are mixing, you need to be sure are exactly the same colour as the paints in the 1940's.

[EJFoeth]

For early war I'd say MS4, MS4A, AP507B, B6. MS1-3 seem to be ok.

[mister me]

please don't misunderstand my thinking here

-I truly think you found it right concerning 507a=507b=g10, b5=b15=the colour chip you just provided, and so on concerning other things

-but just concerning hesperus, i find it hard to believe that supposed b5/b15 camo is the good one... this colour seems a lot too dark in the colour picture, and also in the black and white one. it would then be truly darker than any other picture of a ship considered for now as beeing in dark home fleet grey (supposed to be of less reflectance than b5/b15). i didnt saw any DHFG painted ship seeming so dark, and hesperus pictures appear more darker with a colour supposed to be of less reflectance.

-again, what i say is not that your new definition of b5/b15 i false ! i totally agree with you, but i just think that the hesperus example is perhaps not a good example in that it was probably not painted using b5/b15.

or do i fully misunderstood something in the recent whole process concerning the new findings in RN colours ? thats a possibility, however !

[mister me]

or did i misunderstood something ? is 507a/b supposed to be dark home fleet grey ? thats what i understood for now.

[SovereignHobbies]

We've had a discussion and think the blue on Hesperus may be a darker blue. Tomorrow if I get a chance I'll update the PDF.

Sorry for the bum steer. I wouldn't pay any more attention to Hesperus as far as B5 is concerned. This is my fault, trying to rush the document out.

[mister me]

interesting picture, however :

this color shall be Ms 1 : very very dark even in sunny condition and definitely some blue into it.
Ms1 the colour suggested by allan raven in warship perspective camouflage volume#1, for what it's worth... since we know there are clearly some errors in interpretations.

[508medway]

May be not. Is Hesperus in any MS colours? The camouflage scheme worn by Hesperus looks to me to be the same as that worn by her sisters. There is a photo taken of Highlander on 31st July 1940 (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205218906 ) and Hurricane also looks to be in that scheme in 1940. That seems to have been the standard scheme for the 9th Flotilla, so wouldn�t they all be wearing the same colours? If so, the colours pre date the introduction on the MS series.

[mister me]

FWIW it's not certain that either Snyder & Short AP507A or AP507B and therefore current Colourcoats RN01 or RN02 (and by extension any other RN paint products from other brands who copied the same source; Hataka, Lifecolor, etc) are good representations of Home Fleet Grey.

hello !

something new concerning dark home fleet grey "real shade/color/hue/reflectance..." ?

[SovereignHobbies]

FWIW it's not certain that either Snyder & Short AP507A or AP507B and therefore current Colourcoats RN01 or RN02 (and by extension any other RN paint products from other brands who copied the same source; Hataka, Lifecolor, etc) are good representations of Home Fleet Grey.

hello !

something new concerning dark home fleet grey "real shade/color/hue/reflectance..." ?

We haven't got to that colour yet I'm afraid. It takes a long time and as those of us involved are half a globe apart and have to fit this around day jobs, we have to focus on one colour at a time or the correspondence gets unmanageable.

All we know so far is that neither of the above shades quite matches the Light Reflectance Value figures quoted time and again in the archive documents. There may be a reason for that difference (i.e. how LRV is calculated may have changed so I categorically do not state that either is wrong, but equally I am not certain either is correct.

Once again it's relatively easy to determine that there is an anomaly to be explained, and far more difficult to prove what is correct with a robust explanation.

[mister me]

What an exciting inquiry !

[Sutho]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

It has taken a long time, but we have just released our new and updated B5 / B15 model paint from Colourcoats. Yes, we have strayed from the Snyder & Short chips. I am sure many will think I am mad for doing so, but I am utterly convinced I am correct in doing so and will be releasing a free to download PDF as soon as the four forum members whose names are on the front are happy with the final format, however we agreed the colour itself two months ago. The PDF will explain the rationale, the references (that I'd encourage readers to go see for themselves rather than just say they don't believe me) and the methods used to arrive at this shade.

I realise the implications of such a drastic shift from the currently held beliefs about B5 and B15. It does mean that some conjecture and agreed colour schemes including B5 determined by analysis of black and white photographs may be incorrect after all - still that is no reason to perpetuate what I believe to be superseded information. Our new colour matches our understanding of unweathered paint. In practise they could and did lose their strong hue at sea due to chalking and wear.






Available now in the UK, and within the next few weeks in the USA:
https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/prod ... -dark-blue

I note the creative models store in Australia now has them in stock, I have purchased a few tins along with the bronze grey to check them out.

I still have my thoughts that if the old WEM colours were matched from actual samples on RN ships then they must have been used for something and have been, mislabeled, mixed or other and can only hope that the answer comes in the future.

[SovereignHobbies]

I note the creative models store in Australia now has them in stock, I have purchased a few tins along with the bronze grey to check them out.

I still have my thoughts that if the old WEM colours were matched from actual samples on RN ships then they must have been used for something and have been, mislabeled, mixed or other and can only hope that the answer comes in the future.

Hi Sutho, thank you for your custom.

As we've progressed the wider research project the question of what those samples may have been has come up a few times. Whatever happens, we still have the Snyder & Short cards and will not be disposing of them.

What is known of those samples? Only that we can't see them now for reasons that pretty much amount to them having been lost, and that they had been identified by Alan Raven prior to being sent to John Snyder & Randy Short. Any original documents that Alan Raven reportedly saved from military disposal exercises ideally would have been given to a proper archive to look after, but apparently those were lost in a house move too.

I fear we will never know what condition those samples were in, nor why Alan Raven thought they were what he thought they were. We don't even know if they were British paints - it is clear the Admiralty had samples of some American paints because those too are colour chipped in ADM212/124 at the National Archives in Kew.

What we do have though is some compelling evidence of what colours the Royal Navy were using officially. Where these do resemble Snyder & Short's colours, great. In some cases where they don't quite match is possibly within the realms of explanation. I personally feel the B5 issue in particular is beyond explanation, save to say that whatever that sample was certainly wasn't B5!

[Sutho]

I note the creative models store in Australia now has them in stock, I have purchased a few tins along with the bronze grey to check them out.

I still have my thoughts that if the old WEM colours were matched from actual samples on RN ships then they must have been used for something and have been, mislabeled, mixed or other and can only hope that the answer comes in the future.

Hi Sutho, thank you for your custom.

As we've progressed the wider research project the question of what those samples may have been has come up a few times. Whatever happens, we still have the Snyder & Short cards and will not be disposing of them.

What is known of those samples? Only that we can't see them now for reasons that pretty much amount to them having been lost, and that they had been identified by Alan Raven prior to being sent to John Snyder & Randy Short. Any original documents that Alan Raven reportedly saved from military disposal exercises ideally would have been given to a proper archive to look after, but apparently those were lost in a house move too.

I fear we will never know what condition those samples were in, nor why Alan Raven thought they were what he thought they were. We don't even know if they were British paints - it is clear the Admiralty had samples of some American paints because those too are colour chipped in ADM212/124 at the National Archives in Kew.

What we do have though is some compelling evidence of what colours the Royal Navy were using officially. Where these do resemble Snyder & Short's colours, great. In some cases where they don't quite match is possibly within the realms of explanation. I personally feel the B5 issue in particular is beyond explanation, save to say that whatever that sample was certainly wasn't B5!

Thanks for that, the order just arrived. Just out of curiosity have you changed the formula of 507C/G45 grey which the tin lid is definitely different to the old WEM tin lid. Is that something I have missed in the last 6 months which have been extremely busy with work.

The bronze grey looks really nice.

I had always thought the previous B5 was identical to the 507B that they were selling. Either way I am glad some sense is being made of it.