USN Warship Numbers: What is ideal? (re-titled)

[Haijun watcher]

Meanwhile...

Defense News

Doubts linger as US Navy preps to order 10 more Flight III destroyers
By: David B. Larter ? 11 hours ago

WASHINGTON � The U.S. Navy is poised to order 10 more destroyers this year, all of which will be the new Flight III variant that integrates Raytheon�s new AN/SPY-6 air and missile defense radar.

Congress is on the cusp of greenlighting a 10-ship buy that the Navy says saves 10 percent overall, essentially giving the service a free ship over the life of the contract. But 2017 saw a vigorous debate between the shipbuilders (especially from Bath Iron Works), some members of Congress and the Navy over questions concerning the Navy�s design progress and how much risk was acceptable for a multiyear contract for this major design overhaul.

Both Huntington Ingalls Industries and Bath Iron Works have signed on to build Flight III DDGs � DDG 125 will be the first one, built at Ingalls in Mississippi, followed by DDG 126 at Bath Iron Works � but questions linger about whether entering into a multiyear contract on what is almost a new class of ship invites delays and cost overruns.

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[SumGui]

This is how you grow the fleet - significant capability for 1/2 the price of a Burke.

I'll also note the article uses an apples to oranges cost comparison - that LCS cost does not have any warfare package included while the FFG will have AAW, ASW, ASuW all from day one.

"ARLINGTON, Va. � The Navy�s new class of 20 guided-missile frigates could cost an estimated $950 million per hull, the Naval Sea Systems Command FFG(X) program manager said on Tuesday. That total is more than double the current cost per hull of both variants of the Littoral Combat Ship.

Speaking at the Surface Navy Association 2018 symposium, NAVSEA�s Regan Campbell said the new class of small surface combatant would set a so-called threshold requirement for a net average cost of $950 million for the 2nd through 20th hulls in the FFG(X) next-generation frigate program following a down select to a final shipbuilder in 2020. First-in-class for the new frigate is expected to cost more than the $950 million average.

That number is almost twice the about $460 million per-hull cost of the existing Lockheed Martin Freedom-class (LCS-1) and Austal USA Independence-class (LCS-2) Littoral Combat Ships currently under construction.

In comparison, a Flight IIA Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer (DDG-51) costs about $1.8 billion to build and equip with sensors and weapon systems."

https://news.usni.org/2018/01/09/navsea ... e-lcs-cost

[Haijun watcher]

Speaking of Burkes:

Associated Press/Defense News

US Navy is seeking proposals for more destroyers
By: The Associated Press ? 12 hours ago

BATH, Maine � The Navy has submitted a request for proposals for more destroyers to be built by either Maine�s Bath Iron Works or Mississippi�s Ingalls shipyard, or both.

The Naval Sea Systems Command issued its final request on Thursday for Arleigh Burke-class destroyers built with ballistic missile defense capability.

The contract covers the fiscal years 2018 through 2022.

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[maxim]

Are these replacements for Ticonderoga class ships or additional ships?

[Admiral John Byng]

I thought the USN had ruled out a new cruiser?

[maxim]

If they did - there is at least no new cruiser design available - they have to replace the old cruisers with destroyers.

I cannot see the difference between USN cruisers and destroyers - these classifications are since 1975 not really logical.

[navydavesof]

If they did - there is at least no new cruiser design available - they have to replace the old cruisers with destroyers.

I cannot see the difference between USN cruisers and destroyers - these classifications are since 1975 not really logical.

Indeed! There is already a CG version of the Burke on the books, pretty much a Burke style Tico. That is what I would pursue for a new CG. As they are, the Burke�s could be elongated by 30� and given another 32 VLS forward or the gun could be replaced by another 32 VLS without a hull extension. If they want a BMD specific ship, an FFG size ship equipped with AMDR, 96-128 VLS, and a 76mm gun would likely be best.

[navydavesof]

A real new build FFG really does seem to be one based around the Berthoff National Security Cutter. That bad boy can accommodate the entire request without a hull extension or anything

[Haijun watcher]

More articles of interest that detail the USN's plans to get to 355 warships, including estimates for coming decades by ship type:

Defense News

U.S. Navy to add 46 ships in five years, but 355 ships is well over the horizon
By: David B. Larter ? 3 hours ago

The Navy will grow by more than forty ships over the next five years, the Navy�s Budget director said Monday. But while the fleet will grow rapidly in the near term, the gains will sputter out shortly thereafter.

While the shipbuilding budget request saw a relatively modest increase in the service�s 2019 submission over the previous year, service-life extension programs, a bevy of new destroyers and littoral combat ships will push the Navy�s numbers higher rapidly to 326 ships in 2023. That�s a jump of 46 ships over just the next five years from today�s count of 280.

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The service will also buoy their numbers through service-life extensions on six of the older cruisers, meaning that in total the service will have modernized 17 of its 22 cruisers past their 35-year service life. The Navy is currently upgrading its newest 11 cruisers through a phased modernization plan.

It is unclear which cruisers will be modernized, and how it will affect the planned retirement of those cruisers starting in 2020, though the shipbuilding plan doesn�t show any large surface combatants retiring until 2024.

The Navy�s end strength will also increase over the next five years, adding nearly 17,000 sailors, an approached that Luthor said was disciplined to not add ships or equipment without the needed sailors to support them.

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Subs take a dive

The Navy�s 326 ships in 2023 will mark a high point under the current plan but a slew of ship retirements starting in 2024 will start to drag down the numbers again. Those losses are driven by the final Los Angeles-class attack boats leaving the fleet and a handful of large surface combatants � likely a combination of cruisers and oldest destroyers.

That will drag the fleet numbers to between 313 and 315 for a handful of years before the fleet is projected to start growing again in the 2030s.

Perhaps most distressing of all is that even with the Navy�s current plan to continue buying two Virginia-class attack boats per year, even during years when they buy the Columbia-class ballistic missile subs, the fleet of attack boats will still see a precipitous decline in numbers to 42 boats down from a projected 52 in 2019.

The fleet�s requirement is 66 attack boats, a number the shipbuilding plan doesn�t hit until 2048.

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Defense News

US Navy wants more sailors, jets and an extra ship in 2019
By: David B. Larter ? 12 hours ago

Correction: The U.S. Navy�s future frigate is scheduled to receive $135 million under the fiscal 2019 budget request.

WASHINGTON � The U.S. Navy is getting larger and adding an extra ship to its fleet in 2019, over its 2018 request, but the total shipbuilding budget request seems to make little headway toward a 355-ship fleet called for in a review last year.

The Navy�s base budget request is $151.4 billion, with $15 billion in overseas contingency operations funding split with the Marine Corps. The total Department of the Navy budget request is $194.1 billion, including OCO.

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[Haijun watcher]

Who knows how many carrier groups China will have in the year 2050:

Popular Mechanics

The Navy Aims for 355 Ships by the 2050s

But is a 30-year voyage realistic?
By Kyle Mizokami
Feb 14, 2018

The U.S. Navy believes it will reach its goal of a 355 ship fleet by the 2050s, or sooner if it can get the money and industry is capable of handling the workload. That�s the official word from the office of the Chief of Naval Operations in a document prepared as part of the 2019 fiscal year Federal Budget. The larger fleet is meant to help reduce the pressure on the existing fleet to keep pace with roles and missions, especially as Russia wields its own fleet more aggressively and China�s People�s Liberation Army Navy continues rapid growth.

The report, titled, �Report to Congress on the Annual Long-Range Plan for Construction of Naval Vessels FY19� details how the U.S. Navy plans to grow over the next thirty years, from a current 280 ships to a goal of 355. The Navy has tried to grow the size of the fleet for years, but has been foiled by high shipbuilding and personnel costs, an emphasis on land warfare in the post 9/11 world, and the Great Recession of 2007-2012.

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[navydavesof]

1. A new CG based on the CGBL.

2. A large PCG farce of 20-30 ships.

3. A good FFG.

[Haijun watcher]

NavyDaveSOF,

I'm guessing you would disagree over this plan considering these vessels' similarity to the LCS design?

Forecast International

LOCKHEED MARTIN TO BUILD FOUR MULTI-MISSION SURFACE COMBATANT (MMSC) SHIPS
Monday, March 5, 2018

BALTIMORE, Md. -- Lockheed Martin Corp., of Baltimore, Maryland, has been awarded a $481,169,145 not-to-exceed undefinitized contract action for long-lead-time material in support of the construction of four Multi-Mission Surface Combatant (MMSC) ships. The MMSC is a lethal and highly-maneuverable surface combatant capable of littoral and open-ocean operation.

This contract involves foreign military sales to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Work will be performed in Walpole, Massachusetts (32 percent); Washington, District of Columbia (20 percent); Moorestown, New Jersey (15 percent); Germany (10 percent); Beloit, Wisconsin (9 percent); Sweden (8 percent); St. Charles, Missouri (4 percent), and Canada (2 percent), and is expected to be completed by October 2024.

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[maxim]

These are the ships built for Saudi-Arabia - a more strongly armed version of the raceboat design of the Freedom class. Probably also not shock-resistant.

[navydavesof]

These are the ships built for Saudi-Arabia - a more strongly armed version of the raceboat design of the Freedom class. Probably also not shock-resistant.

it will be interesting to see how they will finally be configured in the end. While I love seeing models, I look forward to seeing how everything will be arranged after all the engineering (ASCM placement, illuminates, ECM, final mast arrangement, if the actually go with the 57mm as is represented or if they will go wit the originally required 76mmSR, etc) is worked out.

[Haijun watcher]

Defense News

Congress readies boost to Navy shipbuilding in FY2018 spending bill
By: David B. Larter ? 5 hours ago

Congress is preparing to vote on a major spending bill that would fund 14 new ships, give the Navy more than $3 billion more than it asked for in its budget request.

A draft of the omnibus spending bill released Wednesday night showed the Navy in line to get $23.8 billion for its shipbuilding account, $2.6 billion more than in 2017. The budget buys, among other things, an aircraft carrier, two Virginia-class submarines, three littoral combat ships, two destroyers, a new LX(R) amphibious ship, a salvage ship, and an oceanographic survey ship.

The bill also funds about $862 million in advanced procurement for the Columbia-class ballistic missile submarine program.

Aviation also got a boost. The budget is buying 10 more F/A-18 Super Hornets than the Navy asked for, meaning they�ll get 24 of the jets out of this budget, if its enacted as written. It will also get six MQ-8C Firescouts after not requesting any in 18.

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[InchHigh]

I am shocked that the LCS is still being funded.

[navydavesof]

I am shocked that the LCS is still being funded.

it would not surprise me if they are hoping to retro fit a number of the older and current build LCSs into something similar to the Saudi version down the line while producing the better armed and equipped FFGs.

[Haijun watcher]

Defense News

Buying two carriers at once
By: Jeff Martin ? 9 minutes ago

Could purchasing carriers two at a time save money? The U.S. Navy certainly thinks so. (Jeff Martin and John Bretschneider/Staff)

(FULL VIDEO REPORT AT LINK ABOVE)

[Haijun watcher]

Defense News

The Navy, once again, soft-pedals its own 355 ship-count assessment
By: David B. Larter ? 2 hours ago

Just in case there was ever any doubt, the Navy really doesn�t want you to hold them to the 355 ship number it said it needed at the end of 2016.

Senior Navy leadership has made a cottage industry of down-playing its December 2016 assessment that attempted to match combatant commander demand with the kind of fleet size it might reasonably expect to build.

Since Jim Mattis took over as Defense Secretary in January, equivocation has been the order of the day when it comes to what size fleet the Navy is building towards in the era of President Trump.

And that continued Monday morning at Navy League�s annual maritime bonanza, Sea-Air-Space. In response to a question about priorities, the Navy top requirements officer told the crowd to focus less on the 355-ship number. When it comes to fleet lethality, its what�s on the inside that counts, Vice Adm. William Merz told the crowd.

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Merz is the latest in a long line of 355-ship soft-pedlars, a trend that has continued despite Congress making achieving a 355-ship Navy a matter of national policy as part of the 2018 National Defense Authorization Act. Merz told House lawmakers in March that the Navy was gearing up for a new force structure assessment that would inevitably revise the 355-ship number.

When Mattis was pressed last June about growing the fleet to 355 ships, he said the nation needed a larger fleet but that it was unlikely without three-to-five percent real growth in the defense budget annually. Mattis has made clear that restoring readiness in the force is his number one priority.

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[maxim]

There is no corresponding increase in the budget!?

In that case it is clear that the focus for the Navy is not the increase in the number of ships, which is in that way not affordable.

Yes, massive tax cuts, but talking about a 355 ship fleet and improving the infrastructure, all at the same time. Economics are apparently difficult for somebody, who inherited so much money (and lost a lot of it).