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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:51 am 
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Sutho wrote:
….to me where I put the 507A and 507B ….


Are you still working on the basis that 507A & 507B were two different colours?


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:59 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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Time for a stupid question:

The bridge looks fairly consistent in pretty much all of the B&W photographs of PoW on her way to or arriving in Singapore, but I am struggling to reconcile those with the colour clip from Gibraltar. Am I seeing a Tone A swoop on the side of the bridge on the colour clip, or is it just shadow from under the signal deck? I'm now thinking it's just a shadow and that it didn't change.

I am wondering if a combination of B6 and MS3 might comprise the bridge; a look similar to that on the famous IWM colour Seafire photographs showing Indomitable's island behind.

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http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:33 am 
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dick wrote:
Sutho wrote:
….to me where I put the 507A and 507B ….


Are you still working on the basis that 507A & 507B were two different colours?


I am still looking at them as two different colours with 507B as a 50/50 mix just to be safe.

I am still open minded about what it can be and have converted the new colour chart published by Sovereign to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and added a few patches for comparison. I know it will never be 100% perfect and it may even be way out.

Edit - MS3 photo added - bridge note blotch below it.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:53 am 
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I am not sure if I am onto something here but again with that "periodic table of colours" I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in. I cross referenced them with the correct year on the chart. I put B6 in as B30 and 507C in as well as B5. I made the mistake of labelling 507A as G5 when I misread the wrong column.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:02 am 
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Sutho wrote:

I am still looking at them as two different colours with 507B as a 50/50 mix just to be safe.

I am still open minded about what it can be and have converted the new colour chart published by Sovereign to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and added a few patches for comparison. I know it will never be 100% perfect and it may even be way out.

Edit - MS3 photo added - bridge note blotch below it.


I can see your logic, but to avoid muddying the waters it may be safer to use "50/50" nomenclature on the swatches currently labelled 507B to clarify what is meant.

Having said that, the 50/50 mix of 507A and 507C described in CAFO 1112/42 is quite clear in its intentions that medium tone mixed grey is for use in emergency camouflage without pattern. To find it amidst a patterned scheme amongst all the other shore-supplied MS & possibly B paints would seem unusual.

I don't think arguments that 507B literally was a 50/50 mix of anything really holds any credibility now. For that to be true, the Admiralty would have needed to be at odds with the sea-going fleet at large because the Admiralty have left a substantial paper trail in the archives of 507B being as we described in the recent paper - i.e. just an inter-war formulation for Home Fleet Grey with enamel to make it harder wearing.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:11 am 
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Sutho wrote:
I am not sure if I am onto something here but again with that "periodic table of colours" I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in. I cross referenced them with the correct year on the chart. I put B6 in as B30 and 507C in as well as B5. I made the mistake of labelling 507A as G5 when I misread the wrong column.


The scheme may be correct by accident, but it is highly unlikely to be a combination of pre-April 1943 Pattern 507s and Standard Camouflage Colours plus post-April 1943 B&G series. It will either be MS1, 507A, B5, B6 and 507C designations, or it will be G5, G10, B15, B30 and G45 designations - assuming the colours themselves are identified correctly which I haven't looked in to.

Lindsay and I have been toying with relative tonal analysis offline and whilst it does work to a degree as you can see, it's hard to draw definitive conclusions from it.

It may have been A.E. Schuil who has left behind archived records discussing in 1941/42 how hard it is to photograph relative tone faithfully. Infact he went as far as to list the necessary conditions to be satisfied in order to be able to use photographs for assessment of relative tone and we agreed that in practise those conditions could not be met.

It does still provide an indication though. What you have done is demonstrate why I have had to change most of the colours even if the Snyder & Short versions were close in characteristics. When converted to black and white their relative tones are all wrong as compared to documented numerical values in the archives.

The Snyder & Short ones will never properly reconcile with reality in tone, and hence, all interpretations of colour schemes based on the Alan Raven / Snyder & Short colours are suspect.

One cannot correctly state "this looks like X, Y and Z" if one's understanding of X, Y and Z is incorrect.

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Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:27 am 
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SovereignHobbies wrote:
The bridge looks fairly consistent in pretty much all of the B&W photographs of PoW on her way to or arriving in Singapore, but I am struggling to reconcile those with the colour clip from Gibraltar. Am I seeing a Tone A swoop on the side of the bridge on the colour clip, or is it just shadow from under the signal deck? I'm now thinking it's just a shadow and that it didn't change.


That area is typically black in appearance on virtually every shot (even pre-camo) but I think this shot shows it's not shaded but simply local color.

Attachment:
frame_06.jpg


Also, the top of the armor belt appears much darker in some images, but not all. Many photographs even suggest that B was painted on top of the armor belt where you'd expect A, but some shots show a very dark line even in regions of B.

Attachment:
Presspic_POWChurchill.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:28 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
SovereignHobbies wrote:
The bridge looks fairly consistent in pretty much all of the B&W photographs of PoW on her way to or arriving in Singapore, but I am struggling to reconcile those with the colour clip from Gibraltar. Am I seeing a Tone A swoop on the side of the bridge on the colour clip, or is it just shadow from under the signal deck? I'm now thinking it's just a shadow and that it didn't change.


That area is typically black in appearance on virtually every shot (even pre-camo) but I think this shot shows it's not shaded but simply local color.

Attachment:
frame_06.jpg


Also, the top of the armor belt appears much darker in some images, but not all. Many photographs even suggest that B was painted on top of the armor belt where you'd expect A, but some shots show a very dark line even in regions of B.

Attachment:
Presspic_POWChurchill.jpg


The image is very strange indeed particularly with a very parallel black line so close to the guard rail line. I am beginning to think that it is an error with the film and not a correct image - https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/pho ... rrors.html - I have not had time to read the entire article but I think the last photo you posted is probably most definitely some sort of damage on the film, processing error or printing error.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:55 am 
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Really? Incidentally only visible for a white funnel cap.

Attachment:
Belt.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:18 am 
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EJFoeth wrote:
Really? Incidentally only visible for a white funnel cap.

Attachment:
Belt.jpg


Do you have the full size of all those images you can send me so that I can have a closer look. It seems to me that the dark line extends the entire length of the ship depending on how dark or light the paint is.

The one above with Churchill waving is most unusual as it has patches of almost black that should not exist that are almost in a perfect straight line parallel to the railings.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:49 am 
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Sutho wrote:
Do you have the full size of all those images you can send me so that I can have a closer look. It seems to me that the dark line extends the entire length of the ship depending on how dark or light the paint is.


Except for one, those shots are pretty much 100% size. That is, zooming in shows little else.

Sutho wrote:
The one above with Churchill waving is most unusual as it has patches of almost black that should not exist that are almost in a perfect straight line parallel to the railings.


That is the top of the armor belt so that is perfectly fine. Perhaps they did paint to top of the belt with another colour as some counter-shading or perhaps it it caused somewhere down the line from film production towards reproduction, but suggesting it is picture damage that somehow perfectly captures the belt and not Churchill standing in front of it does not compute. Fact: the top of the belt appears very dark on that and several other photographs.

The shots of HSM PoW arriving in Singapore do not show a MS1 top belt, but, you cannot make out any difference between regions of A & B on top of the belt as is the case on nearly all images. Perhaps the top-belt A regions are also B.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:44 am 
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The photos are very unusual and the dark lines where not there at the time of sinking or appear not to be there. It is certainly not appearing to be there on that Atlantic conference it did either.

Is there any reason that the area could be wet or covered in water that spilt from the decks for some reason that darkened it at the time of the photo like for a wash-down. It is just very bizarre and does not make sense at all being that dark.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:31 pm 
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Sutho wrote:
I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in.


Does photoshop create grayscale the same way WWII film did?

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:10 am 
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Tracy White wrote:
Sutho wrote:
I have again converted it to Black and White in Adobe Photoshop and taken patches of what was recorded to be the "unchallenged" colours HMS Belfast was supposed to be painted in.


Does photoshop create grayscale the same way WWII film did?


AFAIK no software truly mimics either orthochromatic or panchromatic film and their unique quirks (such as making blues appear lighter in panchromatic case or making yellows and reds look very dark in orthochromatic case), but rather averages the RGB colour coordinates out and applies the average to each, thus arriving at a "true" greyscale. Close enough when dealing with fairly neutral colours but not quite there

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
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Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:44 am 
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There are many plugins that simulate all kinds of films (e.g, http://www.psdfilm.com/black-white-film ... oshop.html) so if you know the spectral response of ww2 films it should be possible.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:26 am 
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Hi folks,

It's been quiet for a while, but we've been working away on this. Here's what we've come up with. I have missed EJ Foeth off the credits on this one so will update ASAP and rehost!

IMAGE DELETED FOR CORRECTION

Edit: EJ Foeth added to credits plus tiny tweak to pattern on starboard side superstructure ahead of S1 5.25" mount

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Last edited by SovereignHobbies on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:56 pm 
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It is quite some time. I have been to Japan twice in the amount of times I have posted here.

Here is my take. It is credible and having not seen what the new MS4 tin looks like I have not had the ability to see it how you see it.

Either way it is not too much effort to change an already painted model by leaving the darker shades in place and altering the lighter two.

What I would like to know is how does your MS4 differ from the WEM variety, is it coming to Creative Models in Australia? and also is there a temporary mixing fix I could undertake with WEM MS4 to make it more like your current mix.

I admit that I had been weighing more towards a lighter tone for the lightest two colours but depending how you look at it the two colours seem similar anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:13 am 
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Sutho wrote:
It is quite some time. I have been to Japan twice in the amount of times I have posted here.

Here is my take. It is credible and having not seen what the new MS4 tin looks like I have not had the ability to see it how you see it.

Either way it is not too much effort to change an already painted model by leaving the darker shades in place and altering the lighter two.

What I would like to know is how does your MS4 differ from the WEM variety, is it coming to Creative Models in Australia? and also is there a temporary mixing fix I could undertake with WEM MS4 to make it more like your current mix.

I admit that I had been weighing more towards a lighter tone for the lightest two colours but depending how you look at it the two colours seem similar anyway.


Hi Tony,

The new one is darker. The old product was approximately the tone 507C should have been:
Image

We've had no re-orders from Creative Models since the first. If you're not too fussy then a touch of black into the old RN12 or 13 or whatever it was (I've forgotten already!) will approximate the tone required. The new shade is closer to neutral grey than the old one which was bit more towards yellow and red, but addition of black or white will result in desaturation to a greater or lesser degree. If you have any old RN02 spare, a bit of that might be a good way to desaturate the old MS4 whilst desaturating as the blue in RN02 will offset the "warmth" in the WEM-era MS4.

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:52 am 
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Some comments:

There are three spots of 507C on the starboard side of the bridge; the top spot should be white as there is no ship there

Attachment:
pow1.jpg


I have no evidence of the after most 20mm gun tub being 507C; pics I have do show 507A on all tubs (well, something dark). There are lighter areas but those are the covers near the stairs?

Attachment:
pow2.jpg


On the aft port side hull there are now three 507C areas. I think the most forward one (below the main mast) should be MS4 as well. Note that on some pictures the contrast difference between MS3 and MS4 is negligible but both show quite well against 507C. This contrast difference is not observed for the most forward region?

(I agree with the additional spot of MS3 on B-barbette, port site)


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:02 am 
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Yes, re your first and second points.

Re the third observation, the third area of 507C on portside, yes: there was an error transposing from our drawing to his which Jamie will sort out when he gets home tomorrow.


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