HMCS Haida tribal class camo colors - help

[Jamie Alguire]

Indeed, and another: B30 was a blue grey not a grey green.

The only official reference I know of that illustrates this scheme is CB3098R of 1943. It lists four colours: white, G20, B30 and G45. Any three colour applications would be a variation on that.

However having looked closely at the various black and white photos of Haida in the summer of 1944 I see four distinct shades.

From some colour photography aboard Haida late April 1944:

The darker shade on the aft of forward funnel and all the twin 20mm AA mount between the funnels was definitely a light grey.

The shielding on the pom pom aft was definitely a blue.

Hello all,

I agree with Dick on this; I see four shades, I believe it would be G20, B30, G45 and white, and that it is an adaptation of CB3098 plate 401.

If Dick is correct that the AA mount between the funnels was grey in the colour footage, then the attached mark-up seems like a good possibility for the scheme. I can't quite tell the tone of X and Y turrets; I believe that they would be B30, but Dick might know from the colour footage.

The adaptation (other than plate 401 being of a single-funnelled destroyer) seems to be limited to the three diagonal bars (of white, I can best assume) on the G20 panel, each side of Haida's hull.

The design (plate 401) is specifically for fleet destroyers. Basically it was found that the light schemes were of such affect that when applied to Fleet destroyers in northern waters, the risk of collision with friendly ships when attempting to hold station was a greater threat than an attack by U boat. The fix was to make the aft and sides darker, but to have light bows as they were warranted in hiding the ship when the destroyer was moving head-on to the attack. The high contrast was also seen as an aid to confusing inclination. (CB3098 sections 167 to 170 refer.)

Apologies for any statements of the obvious.

Regards,
Lindsay

Hey Lindsay, thanks very much for the schematic, thats exactly what I was thinking as well, based on the discussion here and my previous research; it just makes sense.
It is however not correct as per the Munro plans I attached previously...which shows no G45 grey on upper surfaces, just a "pale-blue" for superstructure camo. But again I think Dick's videos prove otherwise.

[508medway]

On October 11th 1944, Canadian Naval Order 3873 was issued listing all colours in use by the RCN. The only colour from CB3098 listed is B55. All other are either the old 507s and the MS series. So what colours would Haida been painted in during 1944?

[dick]

Exciting as this find in the Canadian archives is (and which may explain some of the �strange� things we see in photos of Canadian warships in Canadian waters May 1943 onwards) I am confident that it would only refer to RCN ships based in or emanating from Canada and under the operational control of the RCN.

Haida was built in the UK completing in August 1943 and did not go to Canada until September 1944 as can be seen here

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... _Haida.htm

I cannot see her having been painted in anything other than RN paints whilst based in the UK under the operational control of the RN 1943-1944.

[508medway]

Thanks Richard,

The other classes' colours will now be open to discussion but I�m still pondering on the colours for the Canadians. What colours are they?

The scheme shown should contain G20 and G45. However, photos do not seem to show a significant change in tone between the hull G20 and the bow flash and section above the G20. In these phots they seem to be very similar. I know some film types produce different colours reactions. Is that the cause of the similar tones?

[dick]

I have seen no photo of Haida in the scheme under discussion that causes me to doubt that her bow panel was G45 and the darker panel further aft on her hull was G20, as it should have been.

The photos you show are of two other Canadian Tribal Class destroyers and I believe that the reason you see no difference between the bow panel and the hull panel further aft on these ships is because there was no difference!

Athabaskan never went to Canada:

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... baskan.htm

I therefore believe she would have been in standard UK-manufactured RN paints throughout her time in service.

I believe that the scheme she is wearing in your two photos is not the special Home Fleet Scheme but a Western Approaches scheme for Tribal Class destroyers as shown in Plate 4 of CB3098/43, but tweaked to incorporate the bow panel and one or two other panel elements of the HF scheme. But being primarily the WA scheme it was just a two colour scheme. She should have been in white and B55 but the colour film seems to show either a grey (G45?) or a darker blue (B30?) was used in place of B55.

Your photo of Huron is sometime during the summer of 1944 before she ever went to Canada:

http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono ... _Huron.htm

so again I therefore believe she would have been in standard UK-manufactured RN paints at this time.

Huron was in the special Home Fleet scheme design but the use of colours in the panels was not as laid down. In her case the bow panel was exactly the same darker paint as the hull further aft (G20). I have often speculated that variations such as this were to aid tactical identification within flotillas. (It also looks if she had some B30 higher up on the bridge and elsewhere where there should have been G45.)

[gerritv]

The Athabaskan 01.jpg photo above was taken off Plymouth, Devon in 1944. Photo id is R-1039 at Public Archives Canada.
2 more views from same time, and one of HMCS Iroquois. My dad used the Athabaskan photos for the camouflage on the model he built for CWM in 1975. He also had discussions with several of the survivors and got advice on colours but sadly I can't find any reference to them in his notes. I have to repaint a second model he made in 1980 as 1:72 RC. Struggling with paint matches.

[Mike E.]

All:

Great discussion... thanks for sharing your insights.

A quick question: what color semtex would Haida have worn on her decks between 1943-1945? Would it have started off as a tan cafe au lait color, and transitioned to green at some point--say after her late 1944 repair/refit? And when was the green semtex introduced, and how widely was it used? This is a big gap in my understanding of these matters.

Thanks!

Mike E.

[Jamie Alguire]

Mike, its my understanding that the decks were a grey anti-skid color. Like Tamiya German grey.

[dick]

Mike, I�m afraid I have not been able to track down any exact date for the transition to green. I have a copy of a letter dated August 1940 from the Semtex company saying that they were then supplying their product to the RN in �Admiralty grey� (so I think you can rule out tan/caf� au lait). The colour images that I have showing anything of the decks of RCN Tribals show what I interpret as much dirtied green on Iroquois in 1943 and dark grey (indistinguishable from the painted steel deck) on Haida in 1944 (but of course it could be that any green colour has been obscured by layers of oil and dirt). A possible route to answer your question would be look at the specification and/or contract paperwork for each of the Canadian Tribals when built. For the RN Tribals this paperwork is in the �Ships Covers� at the Brass Foundry annex of the NMM. The paperwork shows the colour the latex deck coverings the RN Tribals were to be built with was �red-brown�. Maybe the NMM also have the Covers for the Canadian Tribals built in the UK? Or maybe they have found their way to the Canadian archives? Best wishes, Richard

[Mike E.]

Thanks so much Dick for sharing this info and your advice, much obliged. This is a very good start.

Stay healthy!

Best,

Mike E.

[tjdd]

Gentlemen
First of all let me thank you all for the interesting and informative discussion. Having commissioned and delivered a fine model of HMCS Haida to my old school, I am researching her camouflage colours. The model delivered unfortunately did not conform to the Munro scheme we requested, which as it turns out may not be the correct scheme. I am interested in Dick's FramePool photos, especially 818-959-273.

Dick
Can I ask how you are able to ID the ships? Do you have HD versions of the photos? If so, can you tell me how I can obtain same"

These seem to me to be enough evidence that Haida's scheme, as Lindsay says "would be G20, B30, G45 and white, and that it is an adaptation of CB3098 plate 401".

Cheers to all
Jim DeWolf

[dick]

Dear Jim,

Sorry, no, I have no hi res versions, just what I downloaded from that site.

818-959-273 shows Athabaskan (not Haida).

For identification, the first thing to look for on a British or Canadian WW2 destroyer is the pendant number painted on the hull - the letter and numbers. G07 = Athabaskan, G63 = Haida.

This is not legible in this bit of colour film of this particular set of early summer 1944 Tribals, but they can be individually ID'd because they were all different:

- They had subtly different paint schemes. By comparing what you see in the colour film with black and white photos of these ships at this time where the pendant numbers are visible you can identify ships in the colour film.

- They were also structurally different. Athabaskan and Haida are easily told apart. At this time Athabaskan had the new vertical lattice foremast, Haida still had the old aft-sloping tripod foremast; Athabaskan did not have a small lattice mast aft for HF/DF but Haida did (the thin thing rising from the top of the aft superstructure); Athabaskan did not have a Type 271 radar aft but Haida did (it's the round lantern/lighthouse like thing up high on the aft superstructure just forward of the thin HF/DF mast).

(I have also sent you a private message via the pm facility of this site.)

Best wishes,

Richard

Athabaskan cf Haida.jpg

[Jamie Alguire]

TJDD-
As posted on previous page, think we worked out the following, from the movies posted by Dick (thanks again):
From what you describe in those clips, the scheme you describe actually mirrors the plate posted above by Darren for HMS Tartar; G20 (darker grey/green) on the hull, G45 grey on forward structures (including funnels & the powered 20mm mountings there) & then B30 blue on the rear superstructures (ie the pom-pom).

[SovereignHobbies]

That's exactly what Plate 401 of the 1943 edition of CB3098R shows, incidently.