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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:32 pm 
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SovereignHobbies
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Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:09 am
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Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
Hi folks, and EJ especially.

Apologies for my blunder, and thank you to dick for covering for me. I have been in London on a business trip (day-job stuff) and didn't have access to my home computer, software or the drawing file.

I have corrected my camouflage blunder on "Panel 20" near the stern on the port side, corrected my erroneous lines atop the bridge and changed the aftmost Oerlikon to a dark colour (I chose 507A to be consistent with the one next to it).

Image

I think this is probably as far as we can / are going to take this one, but it will be good to see the occassional model of Prince of Wales from now on painted in something that better resembles the colour cinefilm clip that survives rather than, for instance, the Tamiya instructions.

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Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


Last edited by SovereignHobbies on Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:40 am
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Location: Vincennes, FRANCE
Steel decks in NARN23 I presume ?

Also shall you give a better pic resolution for barrel camo ?

Thanks for all this work and waiting for EU continental stockists concerning new NARN range !

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:58 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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Hi,

We didn't really look at decks much but the steel decks appear to all be dark. I think it will be very difficult for anyone to tell you a dark grey is wrong.

I could make a second page showing extra details like the gun barrels, front of bridge, back of hangar bulkheads and tops of turrets (which had some camouflage carried over the top). Would people like that?

Lastly, Michiel at Naval Models from The Netherlands is making an order now for handover at Telford, so I hope to get NARNs to Europe with him.

:smallsmile:

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:14 am 
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That data is all given in the original camouflage scheme.

Attachment:
camo_ms3ms4ms4a.jpg


(MS4a --> AP507C)


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:12 am 
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SovereignHobbies
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I forgot you had that version Evert-Jan. That saves me a lot of work redrawing. The gun barrels were not my idea of fun :big_grin:

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:20 am 
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It would have been far easier to slap your logo on that drawing :big_grin:

Not all zones on the barrels are correct; it's very difficult to make out the contrast differences between MS3 and MS4.. some regions may require changes.


Also, there's also one error on Y-turret in that last one (colour filling error...) , use this one for reference

Attachment:
POW-playingarounds.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:50 am 
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mister me wrote:
Steel decks in NARN23 I presume ?

Also shall you give a better pic resolution for barrel camo ?

Thanks for all this work and waiting for EU continental stockists concerning new NARN range !


To make matters harder, I believe the secondary turrets gun barrels had camouflage on them in the same manner as the main turrets. I have glimpsed photos on IWM website that caught evidence of this but it was too little of just one secondary turret to get a pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:03 am 
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I don't see camouflage on the barrels of the secondaries in any of the IWM shots (or any other). Can you post the image?


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland, UK
Thanks EJ. I've made another tweak. The barrels will have to wait a while!

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James Duff
Sovereign Hobbies Ltd
http://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk

Current build:
HMS Imperial D09 1/350
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167151


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:11 pm 
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D'ja ever think when you asked the question seven years ago that it would spawn a discussion that lasted this long and changed what we know about history?

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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:20 pm 
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EJFoeth wrote:
I don't see camouflage on the barrels of the secondaries in any of the IWM shots (or any other). Can you post the image?


I will have to go through the images again and try and find it.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:30 pm 
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This is one here where I think there are different tones of colour on the barrel of one of the secondarys.

Also the one looking aft where you can just glimpse some barrels there is what appears to be distinct patterns on them. You can see the forward most secondary barrels are not in pattern but all of the ones aft of it that have been cut off and not quite in the image appear to have a pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:57 am 
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Hi All,

As far as I can remember there are images of Churchill leaving PoW on a destroyer showing some form of camo on P1 5.25 barrels plus I think the Pathe News reel film of the Halberd convoy shows P1 firing with some form of camo upon them?

Best wishes
Cag.


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:33 am
Posts: 102
Location: Brisbane. Australia
Hello all,

I agree with Sutho that the barrels of the 5.25s are camouflaged. My take on it is that they are painted to fit the shade of the overall pattern of the ship when the turrets are trained in their stowed (fore/aft) position. I.e. they are not disrupted as the 14" barrels are, but painted to be hidden in the overall scheme. The best image that I know of to display this is...https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205170702.

You will see in this and other images that some barrels are in a single shade, others are in two shades because in the stowed condition, they 'cross' the boundary between two camouflage panels on the superstructure. Please don't be deceived by images of elevated/trained barrels looking lighter or darker than my advice suggests - this can readily be attributed to lighting conditions.

Regards,
Lindsay


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:46 am 
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Posts: 102
Location: Brisbane. Australia
Hello again,

I have been silent for a long time, and purposefully so. The more I started digging, the more I questioned the established thoughts on what these RN WW2 shades looked like. All I wanted to do was to paint my 1/350 PoW in reasonable colours. What a journey this has been. I now know what the possible shades looked like, and many look nothing like people have led us to believe. Dick sent me the AD29 data for PRS's analysis of the paint samples sent to them by Admiralty (PRS AD29 15 Oct 42, on NA 212/124) . He challenged me to convert them, and with Bruce Lindbloom's assistance, I did that. Jamie took that information onboard in revising Colourcoats, and what we have now is much better than what we had before.

We put a lot of work into the PoW scheme that Jamie put forward (MS1, 507A, MS3, MS4, 507C). It looks a lot like the colours in EJ's wonderful graphic, though the paint designators are different. Is it right? Who can say. Until we find the design sheet for PoW, we can't have any level of certainty; and to be frank, even if you know the intended shades, you still don't know exactly what went on the ship because administrative commanders had some leeway in adjusting designs, and until the standardisation of paint in 2106/43 and CB3098(R), variances in the quality of what was applied (in terms of tone and colour) may have been significant. The MS&B paint was mixed to match colour cards, there were no formulae issued, and devices like photometers to measure tone were relatively new devices and not readily available to ships staff. There is other evidence to show that there were problems mixing paint to match the desired shade before 2106/43, but I realise I am heading off topic, so won't bore you with that now.

The main reason for me posting is that I still see doubt in some that 507B was the same shade as 507A. The first thing that needs to be understood is that the designations '507A', '507B' and '507C' refer to a pattern, i.e. formulation, of paint, not to a shade (shade = colour + tone) of paint. 'Dark grey, Home Fleet shade' was a shade of paint, and it came in a number of formulae, two of which were 507B and 507A, as very clearly explained in AFO 211/39.

Attachment:
1939 1 19 AFO 211 507A 507B.jpg


As far back as AFO 1658/27 we are told that enamel is made to the shade of the paint, so if 507A is 'dark grey home fleet shade' without enamel, it is the same shade as 507B which is 'dark grey home fleet shade' with enamel that is the same shade as the paint. I can understand why people without the benefits of the www and with records still locked away would think that a 'B' paint was halfway between and 'A' and a 'C' paint, but that is quite simply the wrong assumption.

Attachment:
AFO 1658 27.png


I also noted a comment by Jamie re the perils of relying on imagery, and a quote from Schuil (optical scientist engaged by DTSD and seconded to Naval Section, CDCE, Leamington) that I had pointed him to. The document is RE CAM 30 1 1, and this is what Mr Schuil says...

Attachment:
re cam 30 1 1.png


I think it quite obvious from reading this that, if this is the quality of photograph needed for Leamington to make reasonable analysis of comparative tone, then our/my attempts to get meaning from the images that we have access to is a very hit and miss affair. There are many posts on this thread explaining the many, many variables that apply to image quality. I know that I fell into the trap of arguing the toss based on what I saw in images, and I apologise for that - I have come a long way since my amateur attempts at ship camouflage analyses two years ago. There is absolutely no way of saying with certainty that 'this must be that' from ANY image, colour or B&W, modern or historical, unless you have some scientific reference point, and even then, it will only be relevant for single point analysis as no one reference point can apply to every part of an image - too many variables. We took two years of comparing images, making allowances for colour balance problems in colour footage, et, etc to come up with the most likely shades on PoW, and even then, it is best guess.

I will end with a word of caution re WW2 paint samples. There still seems to be some reliance on analysing the colour of sample cards or physical paint samples from WW2. I can understand that - you get something physical like that in your hand and you think 'so this is really it!". But it isn't! Paints deteriorate. Oil paints darken and yellow unless kept under UV. Ultramarine pigment fades, whatever medium it is in. You only have to look at the formulae in 2106/43 to see that the proportions of thinners, oil, etc in each paint was different, so they would not age in proportion to each other. You are seeing how it looks now, not how it looked then. Here is what the Paint Research Station at Teddington had to say about how samples appeared after only a few weeks in dark storage - it is not hard to imagine what 70 years of storage might do...

Attachment:
212 124.png


Regards,
Lindsay


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 Post subject: Re: HMS Prince of Wales
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:01 am 
Hi Sutho,

All new and out of stock Sovereign Colourcoats will be coming to us in a June shipment. We are taking preorders on all colours.


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