Calling all Royal Navy Tribal-class fans

[Brett Morrow]

Nice shots Rick, thanks for posting.
We are both on the same page, I actually trust your uploads as not being tampered with more than the majority I see, so take that as a compliment. Also a good explanation presented.
Going back to your original post, you have used the word `deceptive` we can both agree, I can also agree with you that the shot could fall within the timeframe between transition of flotillas and also the fact that she could be lighter than 507A at that particular time.
She does look a bit weather beaten, some parts of the super are darker than others.
Having said that, except for a short period before the end of 41 in which she appears a light tone before going to disruptive, I have seen no other shots to suggest a lighter colour for 1940.
Perhaps someone else will provide a reference image to possibly substantiate your suspicion.

Touching on my previous Matabele images, I would expect we can also both agree that her presentation appears a darker tone which could quite easily be 507A.
Unfortunately, many seem unable to accept the variables involved or that digital images are manipulated, nor the fact that 2 separate images which appear different tones can actually be the same colour.
All the Best

[dick]

To me the overhead view of Matabele looks like a peacetime photo dating to the early/mid-summer of 1939. I note the tall stanchions and frame supports for the canvas awning that was rigged to cover her deck aft as she swanned around the Channel at that time are in place (see attached photos).

I very much doubt that on a calm sunny day in wartime, with aircraft about, her pom pom and quad 0.5" would be so firmly covered up the way they are. I think that with the awning stanchion in place it would be impossible for her to fire her torpedoes. Less easy to be sure about (maybe Rick's original has better resolution) but are there any ready rounds in those neatly white painted holders at deck level around A mounting and does the depth charge on its projector on the aft deckhouse have a canvas cover on? Jack and ensign staffs are in place and overall she looks very tiddley.

In the summer of 1939, given the painting instructions then in force via the Fleet Orders, as a Home Fleet destroyer there is no colour that she could have been painted other than Home Fleet grey.

[Rick E Davis]

Here is the best I can do in enlarging that area. She does look pretty "clean" and shipshape for a warship during war.

[Brett Morrow]

On the previous page an interesting docking drawing of Athabaskan with circular diaphragms in the forepeak.
For those interested, these were in fact `MK II Type C, SA Oscillators`
The drawing presents some confusion, as A/S implies Anti-Submarine, the correct terminology is SA (sweep Acoustic)
They were Fessenden oscillators for acoustic mine sweep and detonation.
The Fessendens were reciprocal devices, they could make noise but could also be used as receivers, whilst information abounds on Fessenden development, little to no reference is available on the PD pertaining to SA oscillators.

The Algerine and Bathurst class minesweepers were fitted with a single MK I Type C located internally in flooded forepeak stem.
The twin MK II were fitted in a number of escorts, destroyers and some cruisers, the exact number is unknown and probably never will be.
It is speculative that they were fitted to certain ships as added protection to group/cruiser screens entering forward hostile areas where sweepers have been unable to clean before hand.
As fitted drawings are no guarantee of fitting, as is their absence at launch.
It is of interest that Warramunga`s `as fitted` drawing stamped June 43 shows them fitted but their is no evidence that they ever were, Modified Leander HMAS Hobart as fitted drawing stamped Jan 45, after her repairs and modernisation, shows their installation.

The attachments show Bataan, workmen in preparation to fit MK II`s, plus HMIS Cauvery (modified Black Swan class) fitted at launch.

[Phil R]

Several people have asked me about my method for increasing the sheer on my builds of Trumpeters 350th Tribal.So,I have attached a small diagram explaining how I do it.

Cheers Phil

[JCRAY]

Thank you, Phil!
John

[Guest]

Happy New Year Guys,

I'm building HMAS Warramunga and I'm confused as what scheme to paint her as photos I've found of her on the AWM website shows her in 1943 as having camouflage scheme on one side
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C234536 and something different on the other https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C234541

Can someone give me rough idea of the colours as I'm finding it so confusing and don't want to start the new year with a headache.

[gerritv]

One of the photos specifically states that the 2 sides were different.

For the colours, I have no info to add except you should ask as well what brand/paint colour vs. what the navy says the colour is. Depending on where you live the actual paint choices will be limited. E.g. in Ontario here the ColourCoats are either not available or very pricey, or both.

[Guest]

One of the photos specifically states that the 2 sides were different.

For the colours, I have no info to add except you should ask as well what brand/paint colour vs. what the navy says the colour is. Depending on where you live the actual paint choices will be limited. E.g. in Ontario here the ColourCoats are either not available or very pricey, or both.

I'm in Australia and found a store that stocks Lifecolour brand which has a RN set

It says in the caption that its painted in two greys but would like to know what greys. I dont want to by a complete set just for two colours.

[Brett Morrow]

If Guest is Brian, I have reported her colours on the `HMAS in scale`
If you are enquiring specifically for 43, from her commission in 11.42 to 04/05.43 she was dressed in a disruptive scheme identical to Arunta, the colours are accepted as 507A and 507C.
Her port pattern differed from the starboard pattern.
Between April/end of May 43, she went to 507A overall with deck the same colour.
G10 is 507A but is less gloss and lower LRV, she would have been repainted in G10 overall approx end of 3rd qtr 43.
She only wore the disruptive pattern for a max of 6 months, both she and Arunta lost those schemes approx the same time.

[SovereignHobbies]

If Guest is Brian, I have reported her colours on the `HMAS in scale`
If you are enquiring specifically for 43, from her commission in 11.42 to 04/05.43 she was dressed in a disruptive scheme identical to Arunta, the colours are accepted as 507A and 507C.
Her port pattern differed from the starboard pattern.
Between April/end of May 43, she went to 507A overall with deck the same colour.
G10 is 507A but is less gloss and lower LRV, she would have been repainted in G10 overall approx end of 3rd qtr 43.
She only wore the disruptive pattern for a max of 6 months, both she and Arunta lost those schemes approx the same time.

Hi Brett, not to be pedantic but the LRV remained the same at 10%. Whilst definitely less glossy than 507B, it's unclear how much less glossy, if any, the A1 paints would be in practise compared to 507A as the published formula was the same in all respects that matter (i.e. a linseed oil paint with no enamel). For model making, I think it can safely be ignored as a differentiator

Best regards,

Jamie

[Brett Morrow]

For the purpose of correction to comments I made 2 entries back, concerning Warramunga`a deck.
Whilst I had initially believed her deck was a darker colour badly weathered, I feel my comment should be updated after my further investigations. The below dates are accurate.
Her deck approx. June 43 presents as something close to B55, she wears 507A as stated.
Her deck approx. Sept 44 presents in the same colour, the midship Bofors were fitted mid Aug 44, she wears Chicago blue as stated.
The B55 swatch is from the Canadian tribal thread in Camo section posted by Admhawk.

It is becoming extremely difficult to ascertain colours in rare colour footage, as the colours are different dependent on who`s colour chart you are referencing from.
Comments are most welcome concerning this, is B55 most likey? If not then what colour?
Despite the expected colour shift, the known colours in the film present as such.
Whilst this post may have been better served within the camo section, I`ve put it here for the purpose of continuity to my previous comments.

[dick]

Brett,

When I viewed that film the colour on my monitor looked like a worn/faded light green. Given that is a working area of the deck I have always assumed it was Semtex (or an Australian equivalent).

Best wishes

[Brett Morrow]

Thanks Dick,
Interesting that you would use those words, still in discussion with Michael concerning these issues.
The B55 posted by Admhawk is totally different to James Duff`s colour investigations/tests, and other colour charts also.
We not only have to contend with variations dependent on who`s chart is being referred, but also different hues shown on different monitors.
To my eye it looks similar to what I posted.

Attachment shows B55 from Canadian archives (courtesy Michael), no doubt suffering from age and yellowing, very different to James tests and also the swatch by Darren.
It is with much interest that Ron Rosenburg`s Warra (taskforce 72) somewhat reflects your observation.
I had spoken to him way back concerning the decks, he had tried to closely match the colour but the clear coat distorted and altered the hue. I vaguely remember that the colour he used was German, but have lost the communique.
Where his info came from I have no idea, investigations continue.

[dick]

I think the B55 attachment from Michael is of exactly the same Canadian colour card that Darren photographed some years ago.

In the set that Michael has from his Canadian friend the booklet that Darren photographed has been dismantled. The individual cards in Michael's set are photographed upside down (note the stitching holes from the original spine of the booklet are to the right - you or Michael have cropped them out of the posted photo). If you turn them the right way up and compare each colour card in detail with Darren's images you will see that tears, creasing, marks etc match.

So the difference you are seeing between those two images is the effect of different cameras/settings/angles/lighting etc.

I directed James Duff to the UK B55 colour card. He has a little gizmo that analyses the colour make-up of things. We would need him to run it over the actual Canadian card to see if it really differs much in practice from the UK card.

However, having viewed the UK colour card myself a number of times, what I saw in Darren's and Michael's images did not surprise me. With all the caveats about different cameras/settings/angles/lighting etc. here is one of my photo's of that UK B55 card (photographed beside the colour swatches in WEM's old reproduction of CB 3098R/43). To my eye it doesn't look very different to the photos of the Canadian B55 colour card . Doubtless with age both cards have altered from their original colour. In our research for James a range of other evidence re B55 was considered.

[Admhawk]

Would someone please post the links to the colour movies that Brett's photos above came from? I've looked a few pages back, but can't find any. Thanks!

[dick]

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C190801

[gerritv]

I don't have definitive input into the paint colour topic, sadly my dad didn't leave notes on his discussions with 3-5 of the survivors of Athabaskan's sinking. But I do have photos of the model he built for the CWM, as delivered, and after they re-painted it. I only recall that the survivors discussed paint and paint schemes, and that there was some to-and-fro with the CWM about the colours.

First photo is as-built by my dad in 1974-5. The second is a photo I took in 1989 or so, and lastly a photo taken recently by a visitor to the museum.

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

GerritV,

Nice pictures of that Athabaskan model! Thanks!

Maarten

[gerritv]

I have a lot pf photos of the build, where is a good place to post them?