Calling all RN County-class fans

[Brett Morrow]

Some sources quote her wooden decks were unpainted.
Available photo evidence is inconclusive, I have seen no official documentation to support it as fact.
Given that time period and theatre it is very likely that at the time of her loss her wood decks would have been painted dark deck grey or an equivalent.
Unlike some of her counterparts serving in the Med which did have blue grey decks, exact colour unknown, she was not there so IMO they were unlikely to have been blue grey, subject to further findings.
Whilst trying to avoid kicking up the nest, if you check the Sovereign site you will see that Narn 20 was one of the same colour 507A/B, what is perceived by the eye or the camera for that matter is dependent on LRV, and gloss level.
If you read the PDF 507 series report it may explain things better than I.
As I mentioned in the previous post it is likely she was painted overall in Narn 20, but she may have been in the 50/50 Narn 24 mix.
I am unsure of when the 50 mix was directed for application, or if it was applied in that theatre at that time.

[Crossy77]

Some sources quote her wooden decks were unpainted.
Available photo evidence is inconclusive, I have seen no official documentation to support it as fact.
Given that time period and theatre it is very likely that at the time of her loss her wood decks would have been painted dark deck grey or an equivalent.
Unlike some of her counterparts serving in the Med which did have blue grey decks, exact colour unknown, she was not there so IMO they were unlikely to have been blue grey, subject to further findings.
Whilst trying to avoid kicking up the nest, if you check the Sovereign site you will see that Narn 20 was one of the same colour 507A/B, what is perceived by the eye or the camera for that matter is dependent on LRV, and gloss level.
If you read the PDF 507 series report it may explain things better than I.
As I mentioned in the previous post it is likely she was painted overall in Narn 20, but she may have been in the 50/50 Narn 24 mix.
I am unsure of when the 50 mix was directed for application, or if it was applied in that theatre at that time.

Thanks heaps mate for your help

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

... Just a couple of questions,
what colour is the blue/ grey deck colour?
When you say 507A/B is that 2 different colours? ...

The deck colour is officially also AP507A/B, but if you paint your model with the same it will look wrong. Better use a slightly lighter hue on the deck, as it catches more sunlight than the sides.

And about the double indication of the 507A/B: recently it has been concluded these were in fact one and the same colour, 'Home Fleet Grey'. Depending on the lighting conditions it appears darker or lighter - very trivial. So it depends on what look you like on your model you choose either darker or lighter. Personally I opt for the lighter side, taking some of the 'scale effect' into account: this is the apparent lighter appearance of any colour at a distance through atmospheric dilution (think of mountain rows in the distance). More reading here:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=167359&start=0

Testors 1720 might be an acceptable alternative, and so might Humbrol 144. Not exact, but maybe close enough for your purpose.

[Brett Morrow]

Where is the official documentation that the deck was 507A/B ? No AP prefix

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Where is the official documentation that the deck was 507A/B ? No AP prefix

I wouldn't know. Never seen officially stated that Cornwalls deck were painted that colour.

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Aoshima is coming out with a correct 1/700 scale Dorsetshire, and a Cornwall kits. The Cornwall kit has the pleasant addition of an S-Class DD kit included. ETA, towards the end of this year!

Bob Pink.

That is certainly good news for the 1/700 adepts, but Combrig will like it less, their Kent class will not be so popular anymore.

Someone maybe looking into converting the new Dorsetshire into a London class? Shouldn't be too difficult I think!

[Crossy77]

... Just a couple of questions,
what colour is the blue/ grey deck colour?
When you say 507A/B is that 2 different colours? ...

The deck colour is officially also AP507A/B, but if you paint your model with the same it will look wrong. Better use a slightly lighter hue on the deck, as it catches more sunlight than the sides.

And about the double indication of the 507A/B: recently it has been concluded these were in fact one and the same colour, 'Home Fleet Grey'. Depending on the lighting conditions it appears darker or lighter - very trivial. So it depends on what look you like on your model you choose either darker or lighter. Personally I opt for the lighter side, taking some of the 'scale effect' into account: this is the apparent lighter appearance of any colour at a distance through atmospheric dilution (think of mountain rows in the distance). More reading here:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=167359&start=0

Testors 1720 might be an acceptable alternative, and so might Humbrol 144. Not exact, but maybe close enough for your purpose.

Thanks heaps mate for the information

[Rob-UK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJIp7kQ8D0o

A good quality intimate and comprehensive tour of HMS London. Also useful for any of the County class (or other RN) cruisers.

[Phil R]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJIp7kQ8D0o

A good quality intimate and comprehensive tour of HMS London. Also useful for any of the County class (or other RN) cruisers.

Thanks for posting that Rob.it is coming in very useful!!

Cheers Phil

[Mike E.]

All:

Looks like we might have to revise our understanding of the camo worn by HMS Norfolk on her port side during Battle of the North Cape.

@Nerigoma who just finished a very nice build of Aoshima's HMS Norfolk in 1/700 for the October 2019 Model Art Magazine (Japan), came across these newsreel photos in the course of this research, which shows a completely new scheme for the port side of Norfolk during North Cape:

https://twitter.com/nerigoma/status/116 ... 51008?s=20

https://twitter.com/nerigoma/status/116 ... 67072?s=20

And here are photos of his very nice build:

https://twitter.com/nerigoma/status/116 ... 84834?s=20

Comments from the RN camouflage aficionados?

Enjoy!

Mike E.

[Mike E.]

And here is the Pathe newsreel showing the port side camo of HMS Norfolk, viewable at 2:42 into the film:

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/the- ... orst-story

Enjoy!

Mike E.

[Mike E.]

All:

Here is what "we" "thought" the scheme was, based on Alan Raven's prior research, which was published in Man O'War 1, County Class Cruisers (p. 24) and Camouflage V.3: Royal Navy 1943-1944, p. 33. The link below will take you to the instructions for the Aoshima kit, which doesn't quite get the colors right per Raven, but which more or less correctly depicts the panel shapes per Raven:

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10601475/60/2

And here is a yet another "new" video of the port side of Norfolk from another Pathe newsfilm:

https://youtu.be/XvJdufpfXZk

HMS Norfolk starts at the 42 second mark...

For a discussion about this occurring on Japanese twitter (use your translate function to read), see this twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/nerigoma/status/116 ... 95072?s=20

I will leave it to others more qualified to try to determine the exact timeframe of these films. And the "discovery" of this new scheme (hiding in plain sight, as it were), does not mean that Alan Raven was wrong about the scheme he previously published--it may have been worn before the scheme shown here. Indeed, IIRC, he writes in RN camo that the port side scheme was tweaked or altered in October 1943 or so... so maybe it was changed to the scheme shown in the above videos.

HTH

Mike E.

[maxim]

Here is another photo of Norfolk's port side dated December 1943:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205153329

It confirms the pattern shown on the other two port side photos from the film. I have not found any photos confirming Raven's interpretation.

[Brett Morrow]

Quite a bit of activity here and SN concerning Norfolk`s port scheme.
Richelieu wears the scheme applied in Oct 43, therefore the image posted by Maxim is after that date and is probably correct for Dec 43, the other images within the films are highly likely the same period also.
Norfolk was no different to many other ships, her schemes were changed quite a number of times.
As per Mike`s comment, evidently her port side had received some changes to the sketch in WSP Vol 2. around Oct/Nov.
We now have reference to a new scheme applied to her port side in Dec 43, pretty simple, strbd side (without study) appears unchanged for that period.
I have skimmed through the film clips without close study, check the other ships, the destroyer broadside may give a good indication of timeframe.

Mr Raven may have had a reference image from a private collection which others do not have, and no images exist within the P.D. there is nothing unusual about that, I have images of ships from private collections which have no official recordings of schemes.
The comment directed at M Wright on SN was probably uncalled for irrespective of what may be true/or untrue.

[Jack G]

Some great information in this thread, I've enjoyed all the info and pictures of Australia's camo pattern.

Does anyone have any deck plans for the bridge levels of the British Kent sub-group as originally constructed? Were they all the same? I think I can see differences on the bridge of the Aussie ships as fitted out.

Does anyone have any plans of the after-bridge? It's the bit that seems to be suspended in the air on struts. I can only assume they were trying to save weight.

The Australian Countys had a different after superstructure layout too, I think further aft and further aft mainmast? As well as taller funnels...

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Some great information in this thread, I've enjoyed all the info and pictures of Australia's camo pattern.

Does anyone have any deck plans for the bridge levels of the British Kent sub-group as originally constructed? Were they all the same? I think I can see differences on the bridge of the Aussie ships as fitted out.

Does anyone have any plans of the after-bridge? It's the bit that seems to be suspended in the air on struts. I can only assume they were trying to save weight.

The Australian Countys had a different after superstructure layout too, I think further aft and further aft mainmast? As well as taller funnels...

Do these plans answer your questions perhaps? I haven't ordered them myself nor can I account for their accuracy.
https://www.navyhistory.org.au/shop/hma ... 8-to-1954/

[Brett Morrow]

The bridge layout and design was standard for all the Kent sub class `as built`
Each ship had alterations made to their bridge superstructures prior to and into the war.
The RAN Kents had several alterations made after 1934, the main mod was the enlargement of the DCT platform with the larger outboard lobes.
Australia`s bridge had major mods done in 1939, Canberra in early 42.

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Some more very useful pictures of HMAS Canberra under construction at Clydebank in 'RN Cruisers of WW2' by Roberts/Raven.

[Jack G]

Brett and Maarten, thank you once more.

I do have the R&R "British Cruisers of WW2" with Canberra fitting out, it's about the best resource I have in print. Thank you for those close-ups of Australia's bridge (the star is the main star on our flag, one spike for each state/colony at Federation IIRC).

As my first 1/350 County will be a British one, am I right to assume their bridge structure will mirror the pic of Australia as fitted Brett? Fantastic pic of rear view of superstructure btw.

In the plan Brett posted, the level of the bridge with the signalling projector (1st floor for want of a better word) seems to have 'wings' reaching the side of the ship - I assume to aid in docking, giving the officers a better view aft. All the pics of the UK ships, and their builders models, seem not to have such large 'wings'... hmmmm.

[Brett Morrow]

Excellent observation Jack, a point missed by many.
Whilst the layout of the `as built`bridges of the Kents` was standard this feature appears not to be the case.
The cropped RAN plan is `as built` Of all the Kent subclass Australia and Canberra were unique with the extended signal deck wings.
These extensions on both cruisers were modified in late 34 and reduced inboard, it can be noted in the previous images I posted.

It appears that the DCT platform Mod was done first, and the wing mod was performed shortly after.
This can be noted in the image showing the extended wing of Aust and Canberra in background, note her enlarged lobes on the DCT have been fitted but the wings are still the extended `as built`
The cropped images of Australia traversing the Panama canal in Mar 35 show the enlarged lobes of the DCT platform and the reduction inboard of the signal deck wings.
The Federation star appears to have been fitted in the early 30`s, it was not present before then.