Calling all USS Halibut SSGN-587 fans

[Vepr157]

I'm working on the Blue Ridge Halibut kit, and they unfortunately there is very little detail below the waterline. Does anyone know how the flood holes and other outboard details were arranged? The only source I have is the Jim Christley drawing in Friedman's U.S. Submarines since 1945. I think I can make a reasonable stab at the MSW and ASW seachest locations based on drawings I have of the Skate, but I would have to totally guess on the flood holes.

Jacob

[Tom Dougherty]

The old Pitroad/Torpedo resin Halibut kit has the MBT vents along the bottom. As far as I can tell, they line up with the MBT (Main Ballast Tanks) in the interior cross section diagrams. I am not sure how you would cut these oblong indentations into the existing Blue Ridge resin kit; if you have any ideas, I would love to hear them. See attached photo for MBT vent positions. The Pitroad kit has no other markings, such as condenser inlet and outlets, etc.

The other issue to deal with in placing the vents is the difference in size of the two (reportedly) 1/350 scale Halibut models. See the side by side comparison photo. I am sorry to say that the older Halibut kit scales out just about right for the reported 350 foot length as opposed to the Blue Ridge kit. You would have to adjust the positions slightly for the Blue Ridge kit accordingly. I can scale out the positions for you on the two kits, if that helps.

[Peter O]

Tom, I took the liberty of modifying your photo of the two hulls. I found that if I positioned them stern to stern, the hulls matched pretty well for much of their lengths, up to the small gap in the limber holes (shown by the red line). I then stretched the forward part of the Seawolf kit so that the stems matched. The end result matches the Blue Ridge kit pretty well.

That doesn't help explain why there is the discrepancy though.

I have the Blue Ridge kit to build as the SSGN (which, oddly, Blue Ridge calls SSNG in the instructions).

Peter

[Tom Dougherty]

Interesting work in "cutting" the hull and matching them up. I think you mean "Halibut", not "Seawolf" in your explanation.

I have both model kits and placed side by side, the Blue Ridge is noticeably larger. The older Pitroad kit is almost exactly 12 inches in length, which in 1/350 scale would scale to a submarine 350 feet long. That is indeed Halibut's length. The Blue Ridge kit comes out to 361 feet in length in 1/350.

Now, the Blue Ridge kit is a whole lot more versatile than the old Pitroad, and has far more options and topside detail. And, I really like the Blue Ridge submarine kits very much! But, I am puzzled, since every other Blue Ridge submarine kit I own has MBT flood ports on the bottom, as to why they were omitted from this kit.

A submarine without MBT flood ports is...a surface ship.

[Vepr157]

Thanks for the photos Tom! The aft MBT flood holes seem to broadly correspond to the Skate flood holes, so I think I'll base my flood hole pattern on the Pitroad kit. I'm going to assume the MSW and ASW ports are the same as the Skate.

I'm not sure how I'll accomplish drilling or scribing flood holes. I could 3D print a template that would allow me to use a dremel to excavate the holes or scribe them. If/when I get around to it, I'll definitely document my method and post any useful templates.

Jacob

[Tom Dougherty]

Yeah, Halibut is basically a modified Skate class, with the section after the inserted missile hanger pretty much an unmodified Skate. The forward floods were modified with the addition of the hanger section, and there are ballast tanks around the hanger section itself. She was going to be a "one off" modified Skate, with a totally new design for four single Regulus II missile hangers in what going to be called the Permit SSGN class. Polaris development was accelerated and the Regulus and Regulus II programs were terminated with the Permits becoming Thresher class SSNs.

Of course Halibut was then modified and repurposed as a one off Special Projects boat.

Let me know if you need any measurements or better photos of the Pitroad kit floods. At one point, I was thinking of taking Plastruct STFS-4 finalize styrene square tubing and working it into hole drilled in the hull. Then putty around the tubing to fair it in. But, even the smallest version of the square tubing is probably too big in scale. Plus that would be a lot of fine detail work!

[Peter O]

I've used black or dark gray decal sheet to make floods. I cut a strip the right width, then chop it into rectangles. Applying them is tedious, but Tamiya tape marked with the openings makes it easy to get them properly lined up.

If you have a decal printer, you could print them with approximations of the slot or hole patterns in the cover plates also.

Peter

[CC Clarke]

Tom, I took the liberty of modifying your photo of the two hulls. I found that if I positioned them stern to stern, the hulls matched pretty well for much of their lengths, up to the small gap in the limber holes (shown by the red line). I then stretched the forward part of the Seawolf kit so that the stems matched. The end result matches the Blue Ridge kit pretty well.

That doesn't help explain why there is the discrepancy though.

I have the Blue Ridge kit to build as the SSGN (which, oddly, Blue Ridge calls SSNG in the instructions).

Peter

Despite what Wikipedia says, Seawolf (post-conversion) was 384' in length - slightly longer than my first (598 class) boat, and more than 30' longer than the "H-boat" --as she was affectionately called by her crew. When the H-boat was de-commed, many of her crew were transferred to other billets within the CNO SP's community. They had some great stories.

Someday, (caveat that with a very big IF) the Navy ever declassifies details of the Mare Island-modified projects boats, there will be more than enough red-faced internet "experts" eating crow to crew one of them. Without a doubt, the unsung heroes of the program were the hundreds of MINSY workers who designed, built, and maintained "their" one-of-a-kind platforms and associated systems. They never received any meaningful credit for their accomplishments, --but that was never what motivated them anyway. There are some equally interesting behind-the-scenes stories of their hard work and dedication that made the missions possible.

It's interesting to read recent articles questioning the decision of the BRAC that shuttered MINSY and decimated the adjacent town of Vallejo is being re-visited, since the USN is having a major crisis without enough drydock-capable shipyards to support timely fleet maintenance. (Bay area politics played a large part, as every major naval facility was removed, with thousands of high-paying jobs lost as a result.) Portsmouth, Pearl, and PSNS aren't even close in capability for what is required.

[Tom Dougherty]

Thanks for your comment. I think there is some confusion because the previous poster wrote "Seawolf" when he should have written "Halibut". As you note, Halibut was 350 feet length whereas Seawolf with the extension was considerably longer. My understanding is that the Projects insert for Seawolf was 52 feet in length.

I agree it was a huge loss to the Navy and the community when MINSY was shuttered. The loss of facilities and the accompanying expertise was tragic to say the least. I was in Groton when the New London Submarine base dodged a bullet from BRAC. It was on the closing list, but a concerted community effort, including local political support, saved the day.

[CC Clarke]

A little H-Boat render. Keeping with standard decorum, her modesty is protected below the waterline.

CC

[Vepr157]

Nice render! Are those white markings around the seawater suctions to make them more visible to divers?

Jacob

[CC Clarke]

Thanks.

Nope. Those aren't suction or discharge ports.

[Vepr157]

Ok, well what are they then?

Jacob

[CC Clarke]

All Ocean Engineering-related systems were given a numbered system reference designator so they could be referred to openly without disclosing their purpose.

For example, we had several sophisticated sonars that would not have been normally installed on such an old boat that were paid for with Ocean Engineering funding. Whenever a work request or parts requisition was submitted, they were always referred to by their System number. MINSY had a dedicated supply group just for logistics support, so we wouldn't have to order parts through the regular Navy Supply system - which wouldn't have listed that equipment as carried onboard anyway.

What you're seeing is the working end of System 69. For those in the know, the shark is the punchline. (Everything has a reason.)

Even though the Halibut was decomm'ed 45 years ago in '76, she's still a sensitive subject. Standard declassification reviews are scheduled 25 years after the Originator creates the material. The last time I checked, CNO Special Projects-related reviews were exempt from declassification and subject to 75-year review from origination dates. I have little hope the programs will ever be openly discussed within my lifetime. And that's IF the review deems the information should be downgraded; meaning it could still remain classified, just at a lower level.

There's still information from WWII that remains classified.

CC

[RWilliscroft]

I was the Officer in Charge (OIC) of the Test Operations Group (TOG)--the saturation dive team on Halibut and Seawolf. I do not mean to intrude on these interesting posts, but I thought all of you might be interested in my book: Operation Ivy Bells. It is a semi-autobiographical first-person account of Ivy Bells seen through the eyes of Mac McDowell, the fictional OIC of TOG. Since most of you have an abiding interest in USS Halibut, I thought you might be interested in a personal, inside view of what happened. The book is available at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WDM5LCB/ as an ebook and soft and hardbound. If you wish an autographed printed copy, drop me a line at my book website: https://RobertWilliscroft.com.

[Tom Dougherty]

I thought all of you might be interested in my book: Operation Ivy Bells.

I bought it a while back when it first became available.
I would indeed recommend the book to anyone interested, as it gives a real idea of details of the saturation diving operations off of Halibut.

Thanks for writing and you are most welcome participate with this group! We would appreciate any insights you feel you can give within the bounds of security.
Tom

[ArmchairAdmiral]

Any chance of a reissue of the Blue Ridge Halibut kit? Or maybe Iron Shipwrights doing one?

[Tom Dougherty]

I think you would have to find out where (if they still exist) the masters or the molds for the original Blue Ridge Halibut kit are. Obviously, Brandon Lowe is the guy to contact since he was (along with his father) Blue Ridge Models. The Halibut kit was a "limited edition" of 250, and I have boxes #3 and #167. I bought the latter when I thought a few months down the line that I would do both the original configuration and the modified ocean engineering versions. How many kits were left of the 250 made is unknown. But the fact that it is NOT on the Squadron list of Blue Ridge kits may answer that question.

I am working with Iron Shipwrights on some of the new post WWII submarine kits line. There is a recently released ocean engineering (special projects) version of SSN 575 Seawolf. The question for either a rerelease by Blue Ridge or someone else like Iron Shipwrights expending the effort to redo Halibut is, with (presumably) 250 Halibut resin kits out there in the hands of builders, is the market for that particular kit largely satisfied? In the case of the Blue Ridge kit, are the original masters still available to create new molds and kits, and is it worthwhile to do so?

[Tom Dougherty]

CC.
In your Halibut CGI, since the shark is the punchline, then I strongly suspect that System 69 is an electrical field shark repellent system. Good item to have around divers.

I know, I know, you can't tell us

Tom

[CC Clarke]

PM sent.