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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:02 am 
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ModelMonkey wrote:
Regarding New Jersey's original fire control directors, here's New Jersey in June, 1945. At the time of this photo, she still has her original 6-sided Mk.38 directors and angle-back Mk.37 directors.



I am looking for measured drawings of the Mk. 38 directors. I have found some partially measured BuOrd drawings but am looking for something complete. If anyone has such an animal, I'd appreciate getting the info.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:10 pm 
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Because it has been dull here for a while, I thought I'd throw out an observation about plans because I got some questions about the turrets.

The drafters used much greater precision with angles than linear dimensions. Angles are frequently specified down to the nearest second while dimensions go down no more than 1/32" in most cases. If you try to model the turret, you have to go by the angles to get to get things to work out right.

The front face of a turret is 31' 10" wide. That is a round figure. If you start with that and follow the angles the published dimensions work out when rounded to 1/32". If you use use the linear dimensions, things do not work out.

These are the major round measurements:

The turrets go 32' aft of the CL. The upper surface goes 12' 2" forward. Front face is 6' 5-1/2" forward of that.
The total length of the armor is then 50' 7-1/2"

The outer radius of the circular gas seal over the barbette is 20’ 9-7/16”.
The overall length of the turret (minus barrels) is 52' 9-7/16"

The barrels are 10' 2" apart.

The turret height is 10' at the bustle. It is 9' where the gas seal projects.
The vertical front face is 12".

The angle outwards going back is 12d 34' 43" from the front edge.
The angle of the side corner from the CL is 3d 17' 31"
The angle from the corner is 5d 30' 6".
The angle from the rounded back the flat side is 9' 58 52".
The angle at the back underside is 13d 8' 2"

Those are all the dimensions needed to model the basic turret shape.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:15 pm 
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The process of cementation causes small and difficult to control dimensional changes to the armor plates. This might be the reason why the turret dimensions aren't specified more exactly.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:03 pm 
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chuck wrote:
The process of cementation causes small and difficult to control dimensional changes to the armor plates. This might be the reason why the turret dimensions aren't specified more exactly.


They give theoretical dimensions. However, in the days before CAD programs with 12 decimal digits of precision, the draftsmen used 1/32 as their limit of precision.

The plan will say the [theoretical] maximum roof width is 18' 4-17/32". But that is a rounded figure. If you use that rounded [theoretical] measurement as a starting point in your CAD program, the farther you move way from that point, the more the rounded dimensions deviate from those on the plans.

If you start at the turret face, whose width is a round figure, and follow the angles you get a a figure for the widest point that isn't exactly 18' 4-17/32" but is that when rounded to the nearest 1/32". When you follow the specified angle to the rear corner you get a value that isn't exactly the specified value but is within 1/32 of it.

In fact, there is no rear corner (on the NJ at least). The corners are rounded as the result of shrinkage. The theoretical values on the plans are only theoretical.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:56 am 
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On the Missouri, there are two outriggers on the railing around the SG platform on top of the main mast above the aft funnel. The SG platform was considered the truck of the mast, so these outriggers Were used for hoisting commissioning pennant or the admiral’s flag, and used to hoist Nimitz and McArthur’s flags during the Tokyo ceremonies. FDD plans clearly show these. However the plans don’t show were their halyards are belayed. I also can find any photos where their halyards are shown clearly.

I think the naval tradition is to belay halyards for status flags on the starboard side. There are a set of tie rods on the starboard side of the base of the aft funnel. But Port side outrigger halyards would not have a clean run to those tie rods. The small platform at the base of the main mast would be in the way.

Does anyone know where their halyards are belayed?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:51 am 
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Chuck,

What time period are you asking about for the signal halyards? WWII, Korea, or 80's?

Yes, the halyards are tied off on a brass rail in front of the flag bag. Brass belaying pins are provided for belaying individual halyards. The after flag bag (aft of the after stack) is similar. The 80's modernization modified the signal boxes and tie-off rails to a certain degree.

Hope this helps,

Hank

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:20 am 
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BB62vet wrote:
Chuck,

What time period are you asking about for the signal halyards? WWII, Korea, or 80's?

Yes, the halyards are tied off on a brass rail in front of the flag bag. Brass belaying pins are provided for belaying individual halyards. The after flag bag (aft of the after stack) is similar. The 80's modernization modified the signal boxes and tie-off rails to a certain degree.

Hope this helps,

Hank


I am looking at WWII, Mid August 1945.

The drawings in FDD conflicts with Gibbs & Cox model. the Gibb & Cox model appears inaccurate. It omitted the flag bag and had most of the halyards ties off to the railing on either edge of level 03. My interpretation of the FDD drawings is there are 4 sets of halyards under each yard arm, 3 sets ties off to the brass bar on the front of the flag bag (really a cabinet), 1 set tails off to the railing on edge of 03 level. The halyards from the battle gaffs ties off on a separate tie rod that protrudes from the back of the funnel on the starboard side.

Both battle gaff halyards being tied off to the separate tie rod on the back starboard side of the funnel is consistent with the tradition that halyards for commissioning pennant, national ensign, and admiral’s flag are always belayed on the starboard side.

The problem with the halyards to truck out rigger is they don’t have a clear run to the front of the flag bag. The little platform on the back of the funnel stands in the way. The halyard for the outrigger on the starboard side to go to the tie rail on the back of the funnel, but the halyard on the port side will chaff against the platform if it crosses over to the starboard side. So were they tied off each to its own side to the railing on the edge of 03? If that is the case, is only the starboard side outrigger used for,commissioning pennant and admiral’s flag?

When both Nimitz and McAuthur’s flags were hoisted, were one of their halyards belayed on the port side against tradition?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Chuck wrote:
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The drawings in FDD conflicts with Gibbs & Cox model. the Gibb & Cox model appears inaccurate. It omitted the flag bag and had most of the halyards ties off to the railing on either edge of level 03. My interpretation of the FDD drawings is there are 4 sets of halyards under each yard arm, 3 sets ties off to the brass bar on the front of the flag bag (really a cabinet), 1 set tails off to the railing on edge of 03 level. The halyards from the battle gaffs ties off on a separate tie rod that protrudes from the back of the funnel on the starboard side.


The model is not accurate 100% - I understand it was a builder's model to show the initial design of the ship, but not how she actually was built. I am referring to my FDD Plan Book, pages 65, 66, and 67 which shows the after stack, main mast and so forth. So, we're discussing the AFTER flag halyards associated with the after stack, NOT the main mast yardarm signal halyards, etc.

Photo P66-A shows McArther's pennant flying from the port side outrigger above the SG Service Platf. which is also above the yardarm and its own sets of halyards. Where his pennant halyard tie off is not clear but APPEARS to tie off on a rail on the port side of the 03 Level as I agree with you - the model does not show the single after flag bag. From that standpoint, the model is wrong depicting how the halyards (all) are tied off on the side handrails of the 03 Level. However, I have a couple photos of IOWA (WWII) which shows no after flag bag and the halyards appear to tie of on either side of the handrails as noted above.

Yet, my 1950 MISSOURI Booklet of General Plans and my 1955 NEW JERSEY Booklet of General Plans both show the after flag bag centered behind the two ammo lockers behind the stack. My 1956 WISCONSIN Booklet of General Plans shows no flag bag behind the stack.

As for your comments re. how/where the flag officers aboard would have tied off their pennants, I can't address as I have no experience with signal flag etiquette or the proper display of those items. It would seem logical that if the model showing McArthur's pennant is correct, then wouldn't Nimitz pennant be hoisted on the stbd side? I just don't know.

Hope this was (somewhat?) helpful! I would say at this point that the FDD Plan Book could have given more detail in this area and more photos to show the actual equipment, etc.

Hank

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Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
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USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:48 pm 
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When Missouri was wearing measure 22, her implementation of measure 22 was somewhat different from those on other ships:

1. the specification for Ms22 calls for the top of the navy blue band to be horizontal and level with the lowest part of the sheer of the deck. On Missouri, the Navy blue band near the stern followed the sheer line of the hull. Only at the front is the top of the navy blue band level with the lowest point of the sheer After the surrender ceremony in Sept 1945, the hull was repainted so the navy blue followed the sheer line in the front as well. The haze gray band that normally sits on top of the navy blue band was completed painted over. The entire hull side was painted navy blue.

2. On other Iowa class ships wearing Ms 22, the sides of bollards and chocks are all painted haze gray. On the Missouri, prior to Sept 1945, these were painted navy blue (including the towing bollards under the aircraft crane) in the rear 2/3 of the ship where the navy blue reach the top of the hull. In the forward 1/3 of the ship these were painted haze gray. After Sept 1945, all bollards and chocks were painted navy blue

3. On other Iowa class ships wearing Ms22, , the tops of the bollards and chocks were painted deck blue. On the Missouri these appears to be painted the same color on top as on the sides, whether that is navy blue or haze gray.

4. On the other Iowa class ships wearing Ms22, the tops of 5"/38 mounts were painted deck blue. On the Missouri they were painted haze gray.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:21 pm 
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chuck wrote:
When Missouri was wearing measure 22, her implementation of measure 22 was somewhat different from those on other ships:

1. the specification for Ms22 calls for the top of the navy blue band to be horizontal and level with the lowest part of the sheer of the deck. On Missouri, the Navy blue band near the stern followed the sheer line of the hull. Only at the front is the top of the navy blue band level with the lowest point of the sheer After the surrender ceremony in Sept 1945, the hull was repainted so the navy blue followed the sheer line in the front as well. The haze gray band that normally sits on top of the navy blue band was completed painted over. The entire hull side was painted navy blue.

2. On other Iowa class ships wearing Ms 22, the sides of bollards and chocks are all painted haze gray. On the Missouri, prior to Sept 1945, these were painted navy blue (including the towing bollards under the aircraft crane) in the rear 2/3 of the ship where the navy blue reach the top of the hull. In the forward 1/3 of the ship these were painted haze gray. After Sept 1945, all bollards and chocks were painted navy blue

3. On other Iowa class ships wearing Ms22, , the tops of the bollards and chocks were painted deck blue. On the Missouri these appears to be painted the same color on top as on the sides, whether that is navy blue or haze gray.

4. On the other Iowa class ships wearing Ms22, the tops of 5"/38 mounts were painted deck blue. On the Missouri they were painted haze gray.


Thanks for this info. Looks like I have some repainting to do....

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:17 pm 
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I also have some comments about the deck edge railing and railing stanchions for the Missouri. There are 3 types of railing stanchions on the Iowa class:

1. I-Beam stanchions that are hinged with a pin and bolt at the bottom and appears to be able to be folded and lay flat on deck. These are used for railings made from tensioned steel cables around the main deck and on level 2 around the B turret.

2. Pipe stanchions that fits into a socket on deck and can be removed, these are also used for railing made from tensioned steel cables around parts of the main deck and on parts of level 2 around B turret

3. Pipe Stanchions that are welded to the deck. These are used for pipe railing around the superstructure.

Pontos and Eduard PE for 1/200 depicts all railings with both stanchions and railing as one piece. The beefy I-Beam stanchions are provided as separate pieces which can then be glued onto the existing PE railing stanchions where appropriate. At least on Pontos, enough I-Beams are provided to convert all the stanchions around the main deck to I-Beams.

Even on their promotional photos they show all stanchions around main deck, and no stanchion around 2nd deck, to be I-beams type.

This is wrong.

The I-Beam stanchions are only used around parts of the main deck. Certain parts, including the part of hull side immediately behind the bow 20mm platform, outboard of the 26 foot boat davits between 2nd and 4th 5" gun on each side, uses the pipe stanchions. Don't glue the I-boam stanchions to the PE railing at these locations.


The I-Beam stanchions are also used for the parts of level 2 around the B turret, except the first 3 stanchions on each side. What is more, the first 3 pipe stanchions would interfere with the safety platform under B-turret if the B-turret were to traverse. So these are always removed when B-turret traverses. You can see these are removed during the Tokyo surrender ceremony to allow the B turret to be trained 45 degrees to startboard.


I see many models are made with deck edge railings for Missouri's main deck standing right on the deck edge. This is also wrong. The deck edge railing around the main deck actually stands a considerable distance inboard of the deck edge. There is a gutter that runs all the way around the deck edge that stands outboard of he railing. The railings themselves are actually aligned with the inboard, not outboard, face of the chokes around the deck, or about 2.5mms in 1/200 scale from the deck edge.


Another thing, the starboard side companionway leading up from main deck to 2nd deck abreast B barbette was painted white during the Tokyo surrender ceremony. The Japanese delegation had to walk up this companionway to reach the surrender ceremony and awaiting allied delegation on 2nd deck. I am not sure if the companionway was painted white for the ceremony or if it was standard practice to paint this companion way white for some reason.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:14 pm 
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The folding stanchions are slightly tapered and span the waterway outboard of the wooden decking. They are arched on their base such that an un interrupted flow can go down the waterway.

By "Companionway" are you referring to the exterior inclined ladder abeam the barbette of turret two?

Though my ship model, Missouri as she was in her latest commission is somewhat easier to model research wise, how these ships evolved during their lives, sometimes day to day, is interesting.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:29 am 
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Yes, the inclined ladder:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/016318c.jpg

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:42 am 
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Re: Inclined Stbd. ladder from main deck to 01 Level -

Based on checking photos from BB62 in 1968 - that particular ladder on MISSOURI was probably painted white with the white treads as a special treatment for the occasion.

The same ladder on NEW JERSEY was painted haze gray like all the others.

Hope this helps,

Hank

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Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:20 am 
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Currently this ladder is a wider than normal inclined ladder, as is the aft facing ladders aft of the wardroom. My extremely vague recollection from time aboard Missouri in the mid 60's was that these were at the time standard ladders. Question is were these changed as accommodation to the turons when these became museum ships.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:15 pm 
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Fliger747 wrote:
Currently this ladder is a wider than normal inclined ladder, as is the aft facing ladders aft of the wardroom. My extremely vague recollection from time aboard Missouri in the mid 60's was that these were at the time standard ladders. Question is were these changed as accommodation to the turons when these became museum ships.


The ladders at the forward superstructure of the on the NJ have not been changed. In fact, they are blocked off to visitors. The only ladder I think has been changed is from the 2d to 3d deck on the Turret 2 tour route.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:43 pm 
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A correction. All of Misouri's bollards were painted Navy blue in Sept 1945, including the ones near the bow. Only the chocks over the haze gray band in the front 1/3 of the ship were painted haze gray. The chocks in the rear 2/3 of the ship were also navy blue.


Getting the chocks to align correctly with railing on 1/200 scale Trumpeter Missouri and Iowa requires some work. There are two problems:

1. The real I-Beam stanchions are actually quite thick and beefy. On the real ship the outboard face of the stanchions are nearly at the deck edge, while the inboard face of the stanchions are aligned with the inboard face of the chocks. In other works the stanchions are nearly as thick as the chocks. Folded PE stanchions provided by Pontos and Eduard are still too thin, unless you use two PE stanchions glued back to back for each stanchion. Otherwise either the outboard dace of the stanchions are too far inboard, or the railings can not align with the backs of the chocks.

2. The chocks Trumpter provided were far too thick. So to align the railing with their back edges would force the railing to stand too far back from the deck edge. In reality the main part of the chocks were only as thick than the width of the waterway around the deck. The inboard bottom of the chocks actually protrudes inboard to enable the chock to straddle the waterway. Trumpeter made the chock thick enough so they didn't need the protrusion on the bottom to straddle the waterway. The problem is then you can't properly align the railing with the chocks without the railings standing too far inboard.


There are some 1/200 USN chocks available through 3D printing, but unfortunately these are not the right type or size for US fast battleships. So to fiddly modification to the trumpeter chocks would be needed to get this detail right.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Another thing, it seems there are a number of interpretation for the number and configuration of the tall whip antennae around Missouri’s superstructure in Sept 1945. Floating Dry Dock plans show 1 short whip antenna on a platform on the aft edge of the forefunnel, no whip antenna between the stacks, and 4 short whip entenna around the aft fire control tower.

Pontos suggest quite a few more, with 2 tall whip antennae between the stacks, 2 additional short antennae on the bulwark around aft sky lookout platform, and two more medium antennae on the aft side of the40mm bofor tub on either side of forward fire control tower.

Based on some pretty sharp photos of the Missouri when Missouri attended the Hudson River Navy review after V-J day, when Missouri had her naked painted on her side midship, Pontos’s interpretation seems to be closer to the mark, although not every additional antennnaPobtis depicted can clearly be made out.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Chuck wrote:
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1. The real I-Beam stanchions are actually quite thick and beefy. On the real ship the outboard face of the stanchions are nearly at the deck edge, while the inboard face of the stanchions are aligned with the inboard face of the chocks. In other works the stanchions are nearly as thick as the chocks. Folded PE stanchions provided by Pontos and Eduard are still too thin, unless you use two PE stanchions glued back to back for each stanchion. Otherwise either the outboard dace of the stanchions are too far inboard, or the railings can not align with the backs of the chocks.


Here is a photo of BB-64 (museum) which shows the larger collapsible stanchion and its relative position in the waterway:
Attachment:
BB64 Deck Stanchion Detail.jpg
BB64 Deck Stanchion Detail.jpg [ 258.58 KiB | Viewed 559 times ]

If it were feasible to have 3D printed stanchions provided, that would be the ultimate way to go. However, using the Pontos brass PE stanchions in place of the kit version will not really improve how these fit or look (Pontos is what I ended up using). This is a crap shoot and you probably won't like the odds or results.

As for the chocks, I used the kit supplied augmented with the Pontos brass posts and put them where the deck was stamped for them to go. I also used a custom ordered Pontos teak deck set (which I had collaborated with them in order to produce) and made no changes to the chock location as it was originally designed for use with the kit plastic main deck. A judgement call, I guess; something you have to really wonder if it's worth messing with in the overall scheme of things.

If I were to be working on the 1:200 kit now, YES! I would try to find someone to make 3D correctly shaped and printed stanchions. Chock locations and custom designed chocks? Don't know about that one!

Hope this helps,

Hank

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Builder's yard:
USS PENNSYLVANIA (BB-38) Late '40 1:200
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:00 pm 
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I made mine out of some really fine I beam I found somewhere (1: 192).


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