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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:33 am 
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On further research, G. G. Connell Mediterranean Maelstrom (London: William Kimber, 1987) indicates that the change of camouflage took place in Malta during her repairs: "While in dock Jervis had been repainted in a new and experimental livery ... white painted superstructure and upperworks with a dark grey hull" (note that Langtree says the upperworks were AP507C, and Connell doesn't mention the black areas, which are visible in a number of photos).

As for the "Mediterranean disruptive" pattern, there is a drawing in Alan Raven Camouflage Vol One: Royal Navy 1939-41 (New York: WR Press, 2000) - although it shows her with a 4" HA instead of the after tubes (this was only carried for a period in 1940, after which tubes were refitted there) and RDF Type 286, which was fitted in June 1941 (and so was present during 1st Sirte - and not provided in the Flyhawk kit).

Splinter shields were at the deck edge outboard of each 4.7" mounting, thus for "A" mounting at the foc's'le edge, for "B" mounting at the edge of the shelter deck andfor "X" mounting at the edge of "X" gundeck; none were on the main deck.


Last edited by tjstoneman on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:54 pm 
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PetrOs Modellbau
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Very interesting! Unluckily neither Raven RN Camouflage nor the Connell Mediterranean Maelstrom is available here, will try to get these.
Any chance you could send me the photo of her in that white superstructure with black areas?

Would the shields be there more or less instead of railings?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:06 pm 
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I have not seen a photo of her with white superstructure - only the written description in Connell's book. There is a photo (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205144185), apparently taken during Operation Vigorous in mid-June 1942, showing her in a similar scheme, but the upperworks look far too dark to be white (accepting that interpreting some colours from black and white photos is difficult). In this photo she has four single 20mm guns and no quadruple 0.5" mountings - a change since she took part in 1st Sirte.

Although to a different scale, and in a different language, this webpage may be of interest: https://miniships1250.jimdo.com/2015/10 ... lotilla-1/


Last edited by tjstoneman on Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:04 am 
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507C upperworks and 507A hull was pretty common on destroyers. I'd sooner believe that than a somewhat anecdotal white and dark grey description without a supporting photograph.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:29 pm 
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I think I found the confirmation she was camoflated on 14 December battle.

This photo https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205141220 shows it clearly - the splinter shields on the front superstructure (around searchlights) are definitely darker then the ones around the 0.5mg stands.

This one also confirms it for the other side:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205141221

Both also show the 20mm on the middle superstructure. I cant tell if she has Oerlikons or 0.5 MGs forward, I have the impression that I can see a part of a 20mm shield. Quite sure there is 20mm actually.

No oerlikons on rear superstructure - the photograph is standing there and you see all area where one of these would later be.

EDIT: She definitely has both torpedo tube sets.

She also has the radar in place.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:25 pm 
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PetrOs wrote:
I cant tell if she has Oerlikons or 0.5 MGs forward, I have the impression that I can see a part of a 20mm shield. Quite sure there is 20mm actually.


As I am sure you know, the quad 0.5" mounting had four circular magazines, two each side of the vertically arranged guns themselves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_. ... A_1249.jpg

In the first of the IWM photos you linked to I believe that two such circular magazines can be seen
Attachment:
Kimberley Jervis 1941 12 14 a - Copy.jpg
Kimberley Jervis 1941 12 14 a - Copy.jpg [ 22.06 KiB | Viewed 674 times ]


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:49 pm 
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Hmm, true.
What is the shield near it then?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:22 pm 
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If you mean the dark, rectangular shape at an angle, then I think that is the silhouette of some form of canvas/tarpaulin weather covering for the guns themselves. You can see the same on Kingston in this photo:
Attachment:
Kingston in dock - Copy.jpg
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:08 pm 
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Thanks! Great help! Now I think I can go for her. Just waiting for a group built on a russian forum to start ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:58 am 
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One more question... For Matapan, Jervis would probably carry no 20mm and no radar, and still have same camo? More or less same as Kelly kit?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:20 am 
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According to Langtree, the camouflage from September 1940 to December (?) 1941 was "Mediterranean disruptive, AP507A and AP507C with black stern section". No RDF, and no 20mm.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:56 am 
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tjstoneman wrote:
According to Langtree, the camouflage from September 1940 to December (?) 1941 was "Mediterranean disruptive, AP507A and AP507C with black stern section". No RDF, and no 20mm.


Great! That means I can build the Kelly kit as is for the Group Build I am trying to organize, and get her painted as Jervis, which was in fact much more distinguished ship ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:33 am 
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Re Jervis’s paint scheme and the black stern section, Tim has accurately quoted from the list of Jervis’s paint schemes on page 52 of Langtree’s book: “Sep 1940 – Dec? 1941: Mediterranean disruptive, AP 507A and AP 507C with black stern section.” However, somewhat confusingly, the immediately previous entry on the list reads: “21 Jul 1940-?1941: Mediterranean disruptive, AP 507A and AP507C” ie no black stern section until sometime in 1941. The two statements are incompatible.

Looking at the photographs in Langtree’s book, on page 91, in the chapter “The Mediterranean Theatre, 1940-41” there is a photo of camouflaged Jervis at Alexandria captioned as “newly painted”. She has no black stern section so there was certainly a time when she was in the “Mediterranean Disruptive” with no black stern section.

On page 125 there is another photo of Jervis in “Mediterranean Disruptive” this time with the black stern section. It is captioned: “Jervis in late 1941, with an unusual variation of her previous camouflage with a black panel added at her stern.”

I doubt that we will ever find enough photos to pin down exactly when this black stern section was painted onto Jervis but, based on the dates when it first appears in photos of another Mediterranean destroyer, I suspect it was a very late 1941 thing.

In the case of Jervis it was certainly after Matapan (27-29 March 1941). I have a copy of a photo of the fleet at Alexandria with Jervis, Kandahar, Hero, Queen Elizabeth, Valiant and Formidable all in frame. This dates the photo to sometime from 13th May 1941 when QE first arrived at Alexandria to whenever it was exactly that Formidable left Alexandria for repairs in the USA (July 1941?). In the photo Jervis has no black stern panel:
Attachment:
Jervis 1941 5 or 6  Alexandria Formidable - Copy.jpg
Jervis 1941 5 or 6 Alexandria Formidable - Copy.jpg [ 36.53 KiB | Viewed 504 times ]


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:39 am 
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PetrOs Modellbau
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Hi, thanks! She was surely repainted after 2nd Sirte. Photos at IWM from december 41 (links some bit above) show the camo still in place. I actually think the repaint happened only after Alexandria frogmen damage.

Thanks for the photo. Langtree's book I will only get tomorrow...

Anyways, I started painting her, and my work thread is in picture section ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:22 pm 
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Jervis, a rare image cropped and reduced.
Probably taken in late Aug into Sept 40, of special interest her funnel shows signs of painting and may indicate transition from 507A to her disruptive scheme, if so, it could also point to her repainting as a staggered affair and she may have been operating for a short period in 507A overall on port and disruptive scheme on strbd.
No oerlikons are fitted, only one carley float is fitted either side of the S.L. a gun possibly either a 20mm Breda or MK II single pompom is fitted on X gunhouse apron, and her foremast truck extension carries a S16 DF antenna.
The small port side image in Langtree`s book on pg 91 (if it is indeed port and not reversed) would probably have been taken late in the 4th qtr of 40, she appears to still carry the DF coil.
Dick`s cropped image May 41 shows two carley floats fitted either side of S.L. what it doesn`t show is that by that time the DF coil had been replaced with a 286M RDF antenna.


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JERVIS, possibly late Aug-Sept 40.jpg
JERVIS, possibly late Aug-Sept 40.jpg [ 110.98 KiB | Viewed 447 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:15 am 
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Great info, thank you!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:50 am 
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A very nice photo Brett!

Given the layout of Alexandria’s (western) harbour and the location of the city in relation to it, the location of the coaling wharf/gantrys and the buildings of the city on the skyline to the left (east) of them above Jervis’s fo'c’sle, Langtree’s photo is the correct way around. Moreover I have seen this camouflage paneling on the funnel extending around from the funnel’s starboard to portside in film dated 15 September 1940 and also on the portside of the funnel in an onboard photo dated December 1940. I am confident that they repainted both sides in one go back in late July. In G G Connell’s history of Jervis he describes in some detail an overall repaint at Alexandria on pages 58 & 59: “…the overall repainting of the ship …..six clear days in harbour…..light Mediterranean grey, dark grey, black for the bottom colour and funnel top….…Jervis, immaculate in her repainted livery, sailed at 0200/27th…..”

My interpretation of the vertical fixtures on the roof of the aft deckhouse forward of the 4.7” mounting (in your "late Aug into Sept 40" photo) is that these are ventilators (chimneys) etc for the wardroom and other spaces below. Identically located silhouettes can be seen on Jervis’s deckhouse in prewar photos. If there is something at the aft end of the deckhouse it seems to me that it is too small to be anything but something like a Vickers or Lewis gun – and it would be no surprise to find one of those there at that time. In any case, August/September 1940 is surely far too early for Bredas to have been captured and found their way to Fleet units. That opportunity only resulted from the defeat of the Italian Army by Wavell’s offensive which took place December 1940 - February 1941 after which parties of sailors were sent ashore to ‘liberate’ these weapons. In Jervis’s case it looks like she did not get any Breda’s until Matapan. Connell’s account describes how Mack put Jervis alongside the crippled Italian cruiser Pola and sent a boarding party over (armed with cutlasses!) which “…removed several Breda machine guns badly needed to augment the ships anti-aircraft defence.”

The frame of a 286 aerial is indeed quite clear at the top of the foremast in my photo. When was it fitted I wonder? Referring to the fitting of Type 286 Langtree says (page 32) “Jervis followed shortly afterwards in June 1941”. Howse “Radar at Sea” (page 73) says that “at the beginning of 1941… a few destroyers had the fixed aerial 286M radar, stocks of which had been sent to Alexandria (with ship-fitting staff)….” (You would think that Jervis as the senior leader of the Med Fleet might have been prioritized.) Howse then makes no mention of any destroyers in his radar account of the Battle of Matapan. Kingsley’s “Radar at Sea” has detailed ship-fitting tables with the dates and types of radar fitted to individual RN ships larger than destroyers through the war years. Unfortunately destroyers and smaller ships are grouped by class with generalised data. G G Connell makes no mention of radar in his account of Jervis during the period in question. At Matapan Mack is described as finding his way to the scene of battle by what he saw: "gunflashes and starshells". Maybe Tim has more information?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:10 pm 
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For your interest Dick, the apron gun.
Your points would be correct concerning the Breda possibility, although images can be deceiving the gun in question is far to large to be any small calibre weapon.
Taking into account it`s silhouette I can not think of any other weapon for that time period other than a MK II single pompom, given its weight it would have been fitted just forward of the apron.
As for the 286, taking into account the time and specialist installation requirements it is My opinion that it was highly likely fitted between 1-8th of April 41 whilst she was in drydock.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:29 am 
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some more photos showing Jervis sometime between May and December 1941 without any 2cm Oerlikons but 286 Radar

ImageIMG_0007 (3) by mjendrizzi, auf Flickr

ImageHMS Jervis by mjendrizzi, auf Flickr

ImageJervis by mjendrizzi, auf Flickr

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Excellent photos!

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