The Ship Model Forum

Here is a view of the same deck on top of the veggie locker in 1939. The ship was moving very fast under the Golden Gate Bridge so its a bit blurry but these stills suggest the veggie locker deck was teaked at this time.

RE: Paravane rigging...

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Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

It has been quite a while since I last posted -- life getting busy and whatnot -- and I've been catching up on the builds and discussion -- great stuff! Many of the details mentioned since I last posted in 2018 are details I have been researching as well -- guess I do not have a "monopoly" on those details anymore! LOL Just a few notes for a few things which jumped out at me while catching up:
*The appearance of wood decking on the small "triangle" at the forward casemate position on the hull -- correct, drawings show teak there. I do not know if/when that was removed or if it as intact at PH.
*The area directly under the veg locker on the main deck had a passageway creating a "tunnel" left to right -- can be seen in a couple of post-modernization pics.
*The paravane rigging is shown in the screen grab I posted yesterday and is for Arizona but I would imagine it is a common rig for other ships as well.
*throwback to the last discussion Jeff, Tracy and I had regarding my gun tub interpretation -- the tub base IS square and the support for the director was "more correct" on my first rendition (i.e., thicker and not a pole support) and it had four gussets supporting it at the deck level.

*RE: separation between boat deck and top of veg locker mentioned above. I have seen drawings indicating wood decking as well as metal -- depending on the time-frame. In the screen shot attached, there is clearly a metal "flange" or edge between the two areas (original photo dated 13 May 1942). Also, the "dots" showing on the deck are bolts used to hold the wood decking to the underlying steel. This entire area was Douglas Fir according to drawings. From what I can tell, the veg locker and the various structure under it were actually removable due to the hatches for the two inboard turbines. The drawings indicate "portable" for these structures, so IMO, the separation makes sense, as a clean break for the wood decking if the structure did get removed for turbine access.

Jim

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Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Are you referring to the actual structures or the equipment within?

_________________
Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the paravane drawing and the pic showing the bolts. About the aft director support, you said they had gussets at the base. Do you have a pic or a drawing that led you to this conclusion?
Thx,
Jeff

Here is an excerpt of the drawing:

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Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Awesome! Very cool!

Glad to help. The attachment below should help with a couple of other questions I saw mentioned.
*"Mushroom" vent installed on the large, square vent on the boat deck--at different times, there was one on the port, two (1 each, P&S) and then just one on the port side again. The attachment here with the locations circled is from a drawing dated 30 Mar 38.
*Wood decking on the veg locker -- this shows 1) there was wood and 2) that wood was Fir as I mentioned earlier. To my knowledge, the superstructure deck ("boat deck") is the only place with fir, the other weather decks with wood appear to have been teak.

Let me know if there are other areas needed -- I'll try to help.

_________________
Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Jim,

Referring to the Interior layouts of equipment and so forth. I would love to see any drawings (blueprints) of the interior equipment arrangements of the fire control tops on these ships (AZ/PA/OK/etc.). There are 2 levels inside, more than likely utilizing a ladder for access between. Somewhere, there had to have been drawings made that shows all the details, etc.

By F.C. Top I mean:

What's inside this Bad Boy????

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, USS-LSM/R-194 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Here's an earlier version drawing which shows what I mentioned regarding the vents and the decking on the veg locker. It also appears to show the "edge" divider I mentioned in conjunction with the salvage picture. This is an excerpt of a drawing dated 1931 (exact date illegible).

_________________
Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

I've wondered the same thing for YEARS! See if this shows the detail you're looking for... These are for Pennsylvania and dated 8 Dec 1931 and show a more detailed "General" view.

_________________
Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Those are excellent plans - you can add a lot of detail just based on those.

For info on the "gun directors" shown in those plans, check Norman Friedman's "Battleship Guns and Gunnery" -- this book has lengthy descriptions of all the USN pre-war fire control systems for the battleships, including photos/drawings from ordnance pamphlets in some cases. Certainly enough to create a basic model for 3D printing if desired.

Thanks, Ian, I have wondered about that equipment but haven't seen much about it. I have a few of Mr Friedman's books but not that one -- I'll have to add that to my list!

_________________
Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Jim/Ian,

Thanks so much for directing me back to MY OWN set of those plan views in the PENNSY 1931 drawings which I had scanned at NARA in 2016. I had forgotten they were there.

I will indeed check out Norman Fieldman's book Battleship's Guns & Gunnery - that's one I don't actually have in my library. I can only imagine what those battery control crews were thinking on both PA & AZ when the P.H. attack took place. I wonder if either of those F.C. tops were hit at all.

Anyhow, thanks for posting!

Hank

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HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, USS-LSM/R-194 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Neither of the tops for AZ or PA were hit by any bombs (do not know about strafing hits) but the WV (?) had a bomb hit through one of the tops -- just don't recall off the cuff what the extent of damage was, but I want to say it went through a platform before hitting one of the turrets. I'll check my PH refs and follow-up.

_________________
Thanks,
Jim

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Sorry, the entire title for the Friedman book is Naval Firepower: Battleship Guns and Gunnery in the Dreadnought Era.

Hardcover is available on Amazon for the very low price of $105...... https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Firepower- ... 1591145554

Alternatively, it's available on Kindle or e-reader format for $11.49: https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Firepower- ... 5NXRGS6JBM

I actually highly recommend the Kindle format as you can search for text terms in the book to more easily find things...

Ian,

Thanks! I saw that about the title, etc. The prices are really outrageous for the hardcopy version. But, I'm not into Kindle or elec. books, so...I may have to think about this one a bit.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, USS-LSM/R-194 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

I oftened wondered what the little circles on her teak decks were supposed to be. Now I know. Deck lights. Go figure.

Jeff,
Thanks for pointing out the deck lights - I completely missed those being there!! They are also present on the 2nd deck (below) drawings, as well!!

I'll put that in the "Vault" for review when I get to my 1940's PENNSY build.

Hank

_________________
HMS III
Mocksville, NC
BB62 vet 68-69

Builder's yard:
USS STODDARD (DD-566) 66-68 1:144, USS-LSM/R-194 1:144
Finished:
USS NEW JERSEY (BB-62) 67-69 1:200
USN Sloop/Ship PEACOCK (1813) 1:48
ROYAL CAROLINE (1748) 1:47
AVS (1768) 1:48

Hi Hank,
I don’t know if either Arizona or Pennsylvania retained these lights into the late 30’s/ early 40’s. This Pennsylvania pic would suggest the lights were removed and filled in with teak blanks.