Calling all USN 1,500 tonner-class DD fans

[Steve]

Posted on FreeTime's site for a reasonable price

1/700 Midship Models 4 Pack- USS Gridley DD-380, USS Benham DD-397, USS Henley DD-391, USS Stack DD-406

Kit includes Brass Barrels.

I am curious if they included an upgraded accessories set.

[Steve]

1/700 Midship Models 4 Pack- USS Mahan DD-364, USS Dunlap DD-384, USS Henley DD-364, USS Cassin DD-372

Another mix from Free Time with only one duplicated. Has barrels as well as decals. The USS Henley is DD-391

[taskforce48]

So what do you do when you have a bunch of Midship Gridley, Bagley and Benham kits? Build the as is? Or..... Do you do something radical and you improve them? Well I have been working with a company that's on the verge of releasing some 3D printed ship accessories.

Here you see an early test fit, mind you there is still much to be done and adjustments to make but wanted to see if he experts here felt we are on the right track? The Bridge is a little small and subsequently will be adjusted

This is a Bagley in 1944, a 1942 version is in the works as well.

Matt

[Dick J]

Much of what is shown is needed improvement, but be careful on the bridge. While the kit doesn't angle the side faces back enough, your printed replacement angles them back too far. Check this overhead shot of Mugford: http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0538904.jpg

Also, the 20MM galleries on the stack are very late war. Are the galleries attached to the stack or are they separate pieces? My preference is to do several ships at different times to depict the progression of the mods. It is easier to do if the stack is a stand-alone piece.

[taskforce48]

Also, the 20MM galleries on the stack are very late war. Are the galleries attached to the stack or are they separate pieces? My preference is to do several ships at different times to depict the progression of the mods. It is easier to do if the stack is a stand-alone piece.

Dick,

In the photo they are attached, the design we are currently working on will have the stack separate from the tubs. Should have more to show soon

Matt

[Rambousek]

Hello taskforce48, any progress with upgrade parts for Midship destroyers? It has been very quiet here since this summer. Please let us know.

[taskforce48]

Hello taskforce48, any progress with upgrade parts for Midship destroyers? It has been very quiet here since this summer. Please let us know.

Hello

Yes, we have been sidetracked by some other projects and were just having some general subject burnout. In interest of producing a quality product, took a break to launch a few other items. I am actively working on the Benham Class as I type this and Bagley will be soon behind. Definitely wanted something by October, but didn't want to push it and get it wrong. Will keep you updated, should have some updates by the end of the month. Watch out on the "Manufacturer and Supplier" forum for posts from Kraken Hobbies when we start to announce availability.

Thanks for inquiring,

Matt

[Rambousek]

Thank you for update. Looking forward to more news!

[Quincy]

Those look fantastic Matt! I�ll be on board too when they become available!


Bob Pink

[Vladi]

[Edit: I decided to move my today�s post here from viewtopic.php?f=2&t=313754&p=929397#p929397, it fits better here]

Hi guys,

I am still trying to find out how USS Wilson looked like in summer 1942. Some of this has already been discussed in US DDs in Measure 12 (modified) thread and also privately between Rick E Davis and myself about two years ago. Now with Matt�s announcement above and at Coming Soon- USN DD Upgrades this question pops up again.

Let me recap my views. As far as I know there is only one close-up photo of Wilson from summer 1942 - 80-G-K-435

(full res can be downloaded from https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... K-435.html)

Unfortunately, I don�t think we can tell anything from it

Unless any "new" photo comes up I think the best one that could help us would be a better copy of NH 97740:


This actually may be Wilson as her aft 5in mounts retained their housing, unlike DDs deployed directly to the Pacific (like Ellet or Benham) whose aft mounts were open. Although the photo is not clear enough, you could imagine it showing a camo, too.

On the contrary, there is NH 97761, where the NHHC caption says "The destroyer in the center is either USS Ellet (DD-398) or USS Wilson (DD-408)"):

(full res can be downloaded from https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 97761.html)

I think this photo shows open aft mounts and also much more solid paint job, most likely Ms21 - both speaks for the DD being Ellet. Not a clear evidence about the camo on Wilson, but at least another hint.

The other evidence speaking for Ms12mod on Wilson in summer 1942 can be found on the following series of photos from her December 1942 refit. There are many places showing quite clearly remains of Ms12mod camo in December 1942. This makes it unlikely she had been repainted into Ms21:

(full res at https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 38248.html )

(full res at https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 38244.html )
(full res at https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 38243.html )
(full res at https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 38245.html )

You can clearly see the camo remains on front turrets, bridge, bridge wings, "side splash screens" (or how would you call it) on the torpedo deck. I have no idea why these parts were not repainted along with the rest of the ship yet, but they clearly were left until later.

Of her sisters that were also transfered from the Atlantic, Sterrett not only retained Ms12mod until December 1942 (maybe even Feb 43), but her Ms12mod camo was even totally changed from how she looked while being transfered to the Pacific at spring. Unfortunately, I have not found photos of the other ex-Atlantic sisters dated in summer 42.

To sum it up, I conclude it is more likely Wilson carried Ms12mod then Ms21 in summer 1942. The next question is if more evidence can be obtained to support this - and ideally along with more information about how her Ms12mod might have looked like than what we have now.

[Rick E Davis]

Valdi,

I'm pretty sure that USS WILSON (DD-408) transferred from the Atlantic to the Pacific in 1942 painted in Ms 12R(mod). But, I don't have any photos nor seen any that show what pattern she had. I pulled 80-GK-00435 at NARA and after looking at the 2.5x3.5-in copy negative from a transparency that NARA has, I didn't bother scanning it because it was way too dark. The original color transparency "MAY"(?) have allowed for some image details to be pulled out, but the transparency is either lost or is long gone. This transparency was among a group of color images taken by a photographer onboard USS WASP (CV-7) on her Task Force passage to Tongatabu, so was taken during early July 1942 (not August 1942, since it appears the photographer and his color film left at Tongatabu), before USS WASP arrived at Tongatabu on 18 July 1942.

Chuck Haberlein had a color print made of this image and the scan he made from that still had some color. When NHHC decided to re-scan their collection, many of the poor quality color images were simply scanned in grayscale.

Here is a copy of the "color" version that Chuck posted on his old website;



I had played with this image some time ago, but can't find it. So, I played with it again and here is what an "adjusted" image trying to show any pattern. It sort of looks like there "may be" a pattern there, but it certainly isn't clear what the whole portside looked like.



As for seeing evidence of the Ms 12R(mod) pattern on USS WILSON in the December 1942 MINY photos, be careful on what you are assuming is part of the pattern. First off, it was common practice to leave painting of a ship during yard periods until one of the last tasks done. Also, it was routine to take a ship out for a "test drive" before releasing the ship for departure and operational duty. So, this sequence of photos at MINY probably show her going out on a trial to see if everything is working at least well enough for her to go for "new configuration" shakedown and training with her new 40-mm armament and SG radar. Some of the "lighter" areas is primer paint, specifically the front of mount 51 shield and part of mount 52 shield.

Another question, is did USS WILSON have time to repaint to Ms 21 or at least repaint the hull with 5-N paint? The order went out in October 1942 for units that transferred from the Atlantic needed to apply Ms 21 "ASAP within operational needs". This is a case of a ship that lacks photos during this period and unless some long lost photo turns up, it may well remain a mystery.

[Vladi]

Hi Rick, thank you for your reply! I played with this photo as well and received a similar result to yours, but I think it is not really convincing as we have to consider also the effect of reflections from the sea surface etc. So I concluded this photo is not of much help to us.

OTOH the Dec 1942 photos are a real proof as I am sure - besides those base paint parts etc. - there are enough places where the occurence of the Ms12mod remains is quite clear. I increased the contrast on one of the Dec 42 photos and I marked some of those areas below with red arrows. Similar areaa can be found on the other photos, e.g. on the back side of flag bags. These are pretty convincing I think.

Also I think there may be other places on the hull where the Ms12mod bleeds through the 5-N overpaint, I marked some of those areas with blue arrows and the larger arrow points to the most prominent. However, these may also be caused by weathering or several layers or 5-N etc.

Your idea about Wilson being partially repainted by 5-N on the hull earlier than the Dec refit sounds quite possible, too, she wouldn�t have been the only ship treated that way (Atlanta...)

[Rick E Davis]

Some (all?) of the variation in tone on the hull, may be from application. Depending on who and where the hull was painted, much like when you buy paint for your room and realize that the two cans are NOT EXACTLY the same color, different areas of the hull can appear to be different shades. This seemed to be fairly common in 1942. Later in the war, use of yard crews (with spray guns?) seemed to provide a more even appearance.

Here is a photo of the recently completed refit of USS DRAYTON (DD-366) on 14 April 1942. Note the different shades depending on which "over-the-side" paint crew worked on and even within the same rough area there are variations and this is "as completed" work prior to returning to duty. USS DRAYTON never was painted in Ms 12R(mod).

[taskforce48]

From the "You never know what's in the background" department, using some images you sent me Rick I spied this.


October 13th moored inboard of the USS Dewey DD-349 and astern of the USS Monaghan DD-354
It confirms Wilson was still very much in MS-12(mod) at the end of summer of 42. I am actually amazed at what good condition it is in considering her recent deployment. It gives some hints of pattern at the bow but unfortunately not much beyond that, If only I could find some other Mare Island pictures from early October 42, might find some more information. The Ralph Talbot is seen at the next pier getting a refit, however all her yard photos are after this date and/or nothing can be seen in the background.

Matt

[Vladi]

Matt, this is absolutely fanstastic find!

Rick, you may indeed be right, my interpretation of the differences in 5-N on the lower hull (blue arrows) was sort of a speculation. On the other hand, the superstructure features we can now consider as confirmed remains of the Ms12Rmod paint job. Yet not enough for a truthful reconstruction though.

[Rick E Davis]

Matt,

OH MY!!! I normally search the ships in the background of all my scans and have found some really interesting views, but I sure missed this one. It certainly fills in a hole in photographic coverage of USS WILSON. I can add a cropped view from this image to my folder for WILSON. Thank you.

I have taken a look through the Weekly Overhaul Reports that I have scanned, and noted several destroyers at MINY at the same time frame, hoping to find additional "in the background" views of USS WILSON.

USS MONAGHAN (DD-354) and USS RALPH TALBOT (DD-390) arrived in September 1942 for work and departed shortly after 13 October. USS WILSON (DD-408) arrived on 9 October 1942, so in this photo, she had only been at the yard for four days. USS DEWEY (DD-349) and USS PHELPS (DD-360) arrived on 11 October. USS WORDEN (DD-352) arrived on 16 October. USS WILSON and USS DEWEY departed in early December 1942.

Unfortunately, views of USS WILSON didn't turn up in any of the photos of the other destroyers.

[Don Andrews]

There�s a color photo, id�ed as Wilson (starboard side - full length of the ship), I think it�s in the Squadron/Signal book on US destroyers... I took a pic of it, but I don�t know how to upload it here... maybe someone could help me with that, and/it confirm whether or not it�s Wilson?

[Vladi]

There�s a color photo, id�ed as Wilson (starboard side - full length of the ship), I think it�s in the Squadron/Signal book on US destroyers... I took a pic of it, but I don�t know how to upload it here... maybe someone could help me with that, and/it confirm whether or not it�s Wilson?

Hi Don, I sent you a private message describing how to post an image here. Thanks!

Regarding Matt�s find of MINY photo above, it shows that Wilson�s Ms12Rmod camouflage was non- symmetrical (bow, bridge...). Having at least one broadside photo from the given timeframe would still be a great advantage!

Is there any possibility to get/order a hi res scan of NH 97740 as mentioned above?

[Vladi]

There�s a color photo, id�ed as Wilson (starboard side - full length of the ship), I think it�s in the Squadron/Signal book on US destroyers... I took a pic of it, but I don�t know how to upload it here... maybe someone could help me with that, and/it confirm whether or not it�s Wilson?

Posting the photo mentioned above, Don kindly sent it to me today. Unfortunately, the resolution is not great and the hull number is obscured by the bow wave.

For sure we�ve made a great leap with the photo Matt posted and now there�s even hope for more

[Rick E Davis]

First off, I strongly suspect this is a "colorized" image (the "yellowish" color to the life raft is a strong clue). Second, the author of the Squadron "USN DESTROYERS IN WWII", had numerous ID and other errors, plus poor images, to such an extent I refused to buy any of his books after the FLETCHER CLASS and FLUSH-DECKERS books. The author never gave citations for where he got his images from, so no way to check for a better copy of the image. So I'm biased against trusting what he has for a caption.

How then, it still could be USS WILSON, but it also could be of another BENHAM class unit, in the Atlantic or the Pacific.

USS STERETT (DD-407) had a similar pattern to what is seen on USS WILSON and this destroyer. STERETT's Ms 12R(mod) pattern was applied and documented at NorNY (portside only), and I have suspected after seeing the image that Matt located, that USS WILSON may have had the same artistic pattern "style" (but not the "exact" same pattern) applied at NorNY as well. USS STERETT changed her pattern sometime AFTER returning from service with the RN Home Fleet in the USS WASP (CV-7) Task Force, and being photographed at Pearl Harbor.





For comparison sake, I have posted my new crop view of USS WILSON on 13 October 1942.



Also, here are rare views of USS STACK (DD-406) in Ms 12R(mod), thanks to Navsource and IWM;

At Iceland ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0540601.jpg

At NYC ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0540605.jpg ...

Plus one I found at NARA before 20-mm guns and radars had been installed ...