Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans

[ArizonaBB39]

October to December time period

[Dick J]

You have to be careful with what you mix from Lexington '42 and Saratoga '44. Lexington had additional AA added in 1936. 4 platforms were added on either side of the bow and stern with 4 .50 cal mg's each, and the funnel gallery with 12 more .50's. The bow was widened early the next year, but the forward AA platforms kind of got in the way of fairing it into the original deck line. That is why the deck was notched the way it was. In 1941, tubs were added for the 1.1's, but with 3" guns at first. On Lexington, half of each of the corner AA platforms was removed and the tub fitted, slightly below the platform level, each with its supporting structure. The displaced .50's were relocated to the 8" turret tops.

On Saratoga, they needed to catch up in one refit in 1941. Without the forward AA platforms in the way, the forward flightdeck widening was done differently, with the 1.1" tubs and platforms for 2 .50's per side incorporated into the support structure. By 1944, both the 1.1's and the .50's had been replaced by quad 40MM, but the basic supporting structure was unchanged from the 1941 rebuild. Aft, in 1941, Saratoga received platforms for 4 .50's per side, similar to Lexington's 1936 platforms. The aft 1.1" gun tubs were further forward, in the same location they were after Sara's 1942 rebuild. That meant that with the funnel gallery and turret top .50's, Sara had 32 .50's to Lexington's 28. Like Lexington, Sara had 3" guns at first, but they were replaced by the 1.1's at Bremerton in Nov of '41 (Which is partly why Sara was still on the West Coast at the time of Pearl Harbor.) Sara had life rafts added on the inboard side of the stack in the Nov update. Sara was in MS-1 after the early '41 refit, but was probably in MS-11 after November. (Don't know whether 5-S or 5-N though) The aft flight deck extension was also part of the early '41 rebuild, so in that refit, Sara not only caught up with Lexington, she pulled slightly ahead in terms of upgrades. Look at the photos on the previous page of this thread.

[ArizonaBB39]

Dick, that is extremely helpful! Thank you

[Tracy White]

CV-2 � USS Lexington � Booklet of General Plans, 1941, Lexington Class https://www.hnsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/cv2.pdf
CV-3 � USS Saratoga � Booklet of General Plans, 1944, Lexington Class https://www.hnsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/cv3.pdf

Two other resources - the HNSA PDFs are mirrored here and I have a non-PDF version of the same plans of Saratoga at my site here for those who want individual JPGs.

[sas1975kr]

October to December time period

after november 1941 5x4 28 mm with 3 Mk 44 directors + 28 .5 Brownings

[sas1975kr]

By 1944, both the 1.1's and the .50's had been replaced by quad 40MM, but the basic supporting structure was unchanged from the 1941 rebuild.

I have no descriptions. But the sponson of the 5-inch guns has clearly been expanded and reshaped. This can be seen in the photo.

[sas1975kr]

Can someone help with the Mk 44 director's blueprints?

[sas1975kr]

Two other resources - the HNSA PDFs are mirrored here and I have a non-PDF version of the same plans of Saratoga at my site here for those who want individual JPGs.

Thank you very much! Good scan. Better and with less distortion than the one I have.
Where were you one year ago?

[MartinJQuinn]

Can someone help with the Mk 44 director's blueprints?

From Navsource:

Mk 44 on Sara:

Mk 44 on Wasp (above and behind the 1.1):

Sure wish someone would 3D print one. The only one's in 1/350 are from Veteran.

[sas1975kr]

From Navsource:
[/quote]

Thanks

Who can help with landing lights?
Plans of Saratoga 1944 indicates the presence of landing lights. They are not on plans of 1945.
But I don't find the landing lights in the photos from may 1942 to 1944. Were they even in 1944?

[sas1975kr]

Who can help? What is this on 5/38 gun?

[MartinJQuinn]

SQUADRON 12 BOMBS NAURU; PLANES TAKE OFF USS SARATOGA FOR TARAWA RAID

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/75938#.X94m4BKWAgg.link

You'll have to download the video to watch. The photographer sucked - lots of the footage is out of focus - but at the end, some interesting shots of her bow cutting through the sea, where you can see the paint worn away from the wave action.

[Charybdis]

Great detail shots of Saratoga - bristling with 40mm guns - arriving in San Francisco in September 1945.

https://youtu.be/QDkeNbIOioA

[Vlad]

What is the total depth of Saratoga's hull, keel to flight deck? How much did her draugh change with her WWII refits?

Specifically, I would like to know draught and corresponding freeboard to the flight deck in 1942 and 1944 configurations.

[Vlad]

Thank you! The reason I wanted this by the way is to check the accuracy of various kits and the possibility of using the lower hull from e.g. a Trumpeter or Meng Lexington on a Tamiya waterline Saratoga.

One thing doesn't add up for me though. In pictures of Saratoga in WWII (and actually, even in the 1930s), often you can only barely see the top of the armoured belt above the water. In some cases with the ship at lighter load, you can see the black boot stripe is painted over the armoured belt except for the chamfer right at the top. The "design draught" of about 28 feet as drawn on those general arrangement plans is much lower on the ship than this, with a decent height of armoured belt visible. This makes me think this draught was only achieved on trials, or exists purely to declare treaty displacement and the ships quickly sat lower than this. Trumpeter use this value for the upper/lower hull split on their kits but it makes them look too tall when built waterline.

Now, scaling off those plans, for the armour belt to be almost completely below the waterline as in pictures, Saratoga would need to exceed the 32 foot "emergency draught" stated on the general plans booklet.

What am I missing?

[Vlad]

I mean the port side, I'm aware of the assymetry. Compare Page 3 of the plans and how much belt is above the nominal waterline to e.g. these:

https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020314e.jpg
https://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020398.jpg

Using the most left cross-section on page 18, I'd say the waterline based on those pictures is roughly at the level of the 3rd deck (roof of machinery space), so a draught of over 32 feet.

[Vlad]

Exactly. So the ship is routinely sitting at emergency waterline by 1944 if not earlier. If that's the case due to weight creep then that's fine and everything adds up, but in that case maybe it shouldn't be called "emergency"

Incidentally, this makes the Tamiya kit correct despite some initial suspicions I had that the hull was not tall enough. It also means that for a theoretical mating of a donor kit lower hull on design draught with a Tamiya upper hull on emergency, about 2mm extra thickness would need to be added at the waterline.

[Vlad]

Sorry, 1/700.

[ModelMonkey]

Perhaps this drawing will help. This is Saratoga, port side, after her 1942 refit. Notice that a small blister has been added above the original rounded blister. The armor belt is hidden behind the new blister.

[Dick J]

Perhaps this drawing will help. This is Saratoga, port side, after her 1942 refit. Notice that a small blister has been added above the original rounded blister. The armor belt is hidden behind the new blister.

This is a popular misconception. The waterline blister was there on both sisters from commissioning, and they had a matching one to starboard. Sara's small starboard blister was removed in 1942 (unnecessary and counter-productive weight) when the larger blister was fitted.