HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

[GewoonWouter]

That's some nice info which I didn't know before.

Cheers

[Bouncy70]

My guess would be black.

This contemporary model makes me think so.

https://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-natio ... ecord/9025

Yeah, I'd go with black. If for no other reason than that blues were shockingly expensive, while black was dirt cheap.

[marijn van gils]

Many thanks Kurusu!
And good reasoning Bouncy 70. Also, black would make them look closer to a normal window than blue would.

Meanwhile, I also checked photo's of the reconstructed Hermione. I would guess they did some serious research for that, as there is some serious publication on her. The 3 quarter gallery windows all seem to be completely closed, except for the central pane of the central window. The mock windows seem to have black panels with glass in front of them.
https://flic.kr/p/utGjMZ

But afterall it was in 2018.

I know, I should put in some more time...
But from juli 2019 to end of february this year I didn't do any modelling, to focus my free time to get my diorama book finished. That caused a big delay on this project too... But now I'm really back at the bench!

[Bouncy70]

And good reasoning Bouncy 70. Also, black would make them look closer to a normal window than blue would.

Meanwhile, I also checked photo's of the reconstructed Hermione. I would guess they did some serious research for that, as there is some serious publication on her. The 3 quarter gallery windows all seem to be completely closed, except for the central pane of the central window. The mock windows seem to have black panels with glass in front of them.
https://flic.kr/p/utGjMZ

I concur on them being closed other than the central panel of the center window. But I must say the dummies look like a simple painted (wooden) surface to me, without glass. It looks to matte to be glass. Besides, these were warships, glassed dummies would be a needless expense and vulnerable to breakage without adding any utility at all. The outermost window on either side of the stern row of windows is a dummy too I believe, you have a fairly massive amount of hull structure hidden behind the transom at that point so it makes sense.

[marijn van gils]

Many thanks Bouncy70!

You may be right! In fact I really can't tell from the photo indeed...
But I can think of one utility: looks! With glass, the mock windows would be harder to distinguish from the real ones, making for a more elegant appearance.
And the cost of glass would be pretty small compared to all the other expense and effort made on the decoration of a ship, even in this relatively late period.
But all of this is of course just speculation, not actual proof. So the search continues!

Has anyone been visited Hermione and remembers this detail? Dafi maybe?

[kurusu]

Meanwhile, I also checked photo's of the reconstructed Hermione. I would guess they did some serious research for that, as there is some serious publication on her. The 3 quarter gallery windows all seem to be completely closed, except for the central pane of the central window. The mock windows seem to have black panels with glass in front of them.
https://flic.kr/p/utGjMZ

Not so sure they added glass over the black panels.

https://www.hermione.com/en/2011/864-th ... ished.html

[marijn van gils]

Not so sure they added glass over the black panels.

https://www.hermione.com/en/2011/864-th ... ished.html

Indeed, that doesn't look glazed...
Many thanks Kurusu!

[dafi]

One should not get too tricked by the glazing of the museum ships, replicas or models, even contemporary ones.

As the french side is quite well documented with Boudriot and contemporary models, the english is still a mystery to me. In the models and contemporary sources the look like crystal palace, quite suspect to me, as one freak wave would give a nice mash up. Especially like Goodwin describes the blinds - build like traditional englisch windows with counter weihts - have the glazing to be on the outside.

Steel describes mock windows for the englisch navy, but does neither precise for which size of ship it is to be applied neither for which windows: Be the stern windows of the side galleries, be the fore or aft window of the side gallery or even like with the french ans spaniards even part of the middle window ...



The interpretation of Achilles�Queen Charlotte show a well researched version:

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t ... ml#msg9223

With englisch models complete glazing is the standard, but this could be modeling convenance to give the models more snack appeal for the ones that allow the budgets, the same applied for the nice frieze paintings.

The painting of Monamy Swaine shows an interesting detail: It appears that only the middle windows of the side gallery show reflection of glass ...



Also the drawing of Livesay gives the intention that the outer stern windows are mock as they are shown darker then the other windows.



This gave some room for trials on the stern of my Vic, note the different versions of the mock windows.












The other thing is the transparency of the glazing. Traditionally the windows are shown clear, as many contemporary models do. But some models show mica, as apparently many ships used too, especially for the lantern, as for anti-breakability with shock and temperature changes (flames/heat and water). In the days of the Victory the glazing used to be ground glass. How clear the transparency this was is still my question. There are clear panes mixed with translucent ones. Which to put where? Also, samples of the panes have different colors, not just clear. Or is the blurred surface of the translucent panes only a side effect of the long time being buried in the seabed or a chemical interaction with the salt water? To be compared with pieces of modern glas after a short time in surf and sand?

Luckily there is a good source: the wreck from HMS Pandora gave away some spare panes:
https://www.qm.qld.gov.au/Find+out+abou ... MS+Pandora





Here the broad arrow to be seen nicely, indicating that it is King�s property





So, now I leave you alone to make your own conclusions

All the best, Daniel

[wefalck]

BTW, some of the 'glass' could have been 'muscovite', a mineral that cleaves in very thin layers and that has been used for glazing, particularly also for the windows of the lamp-cabinets that illuminated the powder-rooms in ships and for the ornate tern lanterns, due to its higher elasticity than glass. However, it is not as clear as glass, but could have been easily used for mock-windows. Muscovite takes its name from Moscow, where it was used for window glazing extensively up to the end of the 18th century at least.

[kurusu]

@ Dafi.

Most excellent post.

Thank you.

[JIM BAUMANN]

This is all very interesting and most educational!



JB

[marijn van gils]

This is all very interesting and most educational!



JB

Yes indeed!!! Many thanks Dafi!

At least now it is clear to me that there is no definite answer to be found...
Like so often with all things historical!

I don't disagree with your interpretation of Victory's mock windows, but just for the fun of playing the Devil's advocate:
- Swaines painting depics her before her rebuild of 1800 - 1803, with a very different stern.
- On the painting, the ligth reflections on the centre windows can be just a result of the curves of the quarter galleries. The front and rear windows do seem to show some depth to them too: their 'background' is darker at the top than at the bottom.
But again, just playing the Devil's advocate here!

And one question remains open too: how were mock windows finished:
- Only wooden board, painted matt?
- Only wooden board, but painted gloss to mimick glass?
- With a panel of glass in front of the painted wood?
- ...

Cheers,

Marijn

[dafi]

For once I would like to quote myself:

So, now I leave you alone to make your own conclusions

Now, who is more devilish?!?!?!?



XXXDAn

[kurusu]

Trying to find evidence on stern and quarter gallery windows, basically looking for photos taken in the XIX century of the Nelson era ships that lingered around up to the XX century but were not preserved. I came across these videos that may be of interest, because they are trying to recreate canon damage in wooden hulls.

https://youtu.be/XfsuIaTU92Y

https://youtu.be/yGM6AlwjGS0

https://youtu.be/sXVQAnPjshw

And by the way. Damage on the stern of HMS Temeraire after Trafalgar.

[dafi]

There are several drawings of the returning ships of Trafalgar by Livesay.

https://www.segelschiffsmodellbau.com/t ... #msg153439

XXXDAn

[Martocticvs]

The practice of having mock windows I think continued for the entire time wooden ships were built. I have the plans for one of the very last first rates, and there are iron reinforcement straps cutting diagonally across one of the lower deck windows on each side - these were (surely?*) blanked off to hide this feature.

*I'm not sure at all

[Pieter]

Much longer than that . HMS Fearless (1886) had fake stern galleries and windows and she was very much built of steel. I simply suggested them with gold and off-black paint (Tamiya XF69) on my build. viewtopic.php?f=60&t=157726

[kurusu]

And now, just to muddy things a bit.

The oldest British ship still afloat.

HMS Trincomalee(A Leda class Frigate) launched in 1817.

And...

This other picture is huge.
https://external-preview.redd.it/JGwohz ... c57458d39d

[marijn van gils]

Many thanks everyone for all the extra info!

Thanks for those sketches Dafi! And you too Kurusu, and for the video's! I've seen some of them, and they will be most helpful now to recreate the battle damage.

Many thanks Pieter. Lovely model!

Thanks for the photo of Trincomalee Kurusu!
So a greenish blue seems to be a possibility too...

Now, who is more devilish?!?!?!?

Well, uncertainty is the nature of historic sciences... and part of the fun!

[Martocticvs]

I visited both ships last year, and have many photos of various random details. Ask away if you're looking for something specific Same goes for Warrior.