Calling all King George V-class (WWII) fans

[KevinD]

I vaguely remembered a photo I'd seen where they are pulled across - and I have found it!

ON BOARD HMS KING GEORGE V WHEN SHE TOOK LORD AND LADY HALIFAX TO AMERICA IN JANUARY 1941.. � IWM (A 2871) IWM Non Commercial License

Not quite clear to me how they moved as they would have to be manoeuvred past the rails. Not really clear what their function is though.

What "....are pulled across....."? A sailor in a stretcher? And "....what their function is...."? What did I miss?

[Martocticvs]

See attached image. The green-highlighted items. They are almost always seen stowed in the red area.

[Mr. Church]

I don't know for a fact and am only surmising, but I'd say they are bracing elements to strengthen the hangar doors in times of heavy weather. A roller shutter door over such a wide opening like the hangar would probably be quite flimsy and would get battered by heavy seas or possibly even suffer damage from heavy winds.

Well spotted, I had not noticed them deployed across the shutter door like that before.

[KevinD]

..................... but I'd say they are bracing elements to strengthen the hangar doors in times of heavy weather. A roller shutter door over such a wide opening like the hangar would probably be quite flimsy and would get battered by heavy seas or possibly even suffer damage from heavy winds.

That thought had crossed my mind (as many do ), but.............................unless they somehow interlock into the roller door, then they don't do much good on the outside, i.e. the support / brace would need to be internal to stop the roller door collapsing inwards. No?

[Mr. Church]

..................... but I'd say they are bracing elements to strengthen the hangar doors in times of heavy weather. A roller shutter door over such a wide opening like the hangar would probably be quite flimsy and would get battered by heavy seas or possibly even suffer damage from heavy winds.

That thought had crossed my mind (as many do ), but.............................unless they somehow interlock into the roller door, then they don't do much good on the outside, i.e. the support / brace would need to be internal to stop the roller door collapsing inwards. No?

Well yes they would have to be secured to the door somehow. Or else you would have to have a corresponding similar set of bracing on the inside that would sandwich the roller shutter door between the two sets of bracing?

The only other thing I can think of is would they be designed to stop the aircraft from rolling out of the hangar inadvertently? If the aircraft only had a shutter door to contend with it could well roll straight through the door and out onto deck? Though I imagine it would have been stowed with the carrying trolley on the rail system securely locked when at sea?

[Aop Aur]

Hi guys!

Does anyone know where I could obtain specifically KGV class hangar drawings from? I reckon Kagero might provide these in their publications, but they aren't really an option currently due to shipping delays...unless there's a PDF version available.

Thanks!

Aop

[Cag]

Hello Everyone,

Hello Aop, I'm not sure about Kagero etc, and this may not be of any real use to you but the National Maritime Museum in the UK hold all of the KGV class drawings, I do know that there is a aircraft arrangement drawing of HMS Duke of York but it's expensive at about �140 plus postage.

However the Number is ADBB0265 and I think they do have a thumbnail of it on their plans site so you might be able to work something out?

But if you visit the Imperial War Museum site they have lots of KGV class images taken from the catapult deck which show some good views of the interiors which may also be helpful.

Best wishes
Cag.

[Aop Aur]

Hi Cag!

I was just about to order the Profile Morskie KGV PDF file, but you just saved me on that!

I've dealt with the NMM a few times; they are the best around when it comes to british subjects, but also probably the most expensive too. Luckily, that thumbnail is just enough for me to work from!

Also, thanks for pointing out the IWM website; they're currently my go-to source for my Lion project.

Thanks again!

Aop

[Martocticvs]

Their prices are steep, but you have to remember that you are really helping to pay the wages of the people who conserve those plans. They have an astonishingly vast collection of original plans (well over 1 million sheets, I believe), and many of these are on material that was not ideal for long term archival. This is especially true of mid-19th century subjects.

As far as Kagero goes - I can tell you that neither of the two books (KGV, DoY) has details of the hangar interiors, if that's what you're after. Just the external (very) general arragenements.

[KevinD]

Does anyone know where I could obtain specifically KGV class hangar drawings from? I reckon Kagero might provide these in their publications, but they aren't really an option currently due to shipping delays...unless there's a PDF version available.

I have a complete(?) set of builders plans for HMS Prince of Wales, bought and then scanned at some expense many years ago by a friend who graciously gave them to me, but I don't think they have what you are looking for(?). The original hard copies he bought in UK were about 2mts (6 or 7 feet long)! So they are are certainly not lacking detail, but not from the 'angle' you are after I think.

[Guest]

Aop Aur,

Notwithstanding all the kind advice that people have given you here, your best bet is to e-mail the Historic Photographs and Ships Plans Section of the NMM and ask them what level of detail is shown in the hangar arrangements on the drawings for the KGV class that they hold. You apparently, only need an image that shows the hangars. I am sure that they could copy just what you require for a smaller sum than you would pay for the whole drawing. Whatever the case, money has to be paid to obtain the information needed and with the greatest of respect, if you or anyone else, wants first-hand information then it must be paid for and the rarer the information, the more it will cost. The German Bundesarchiv-Milit�rarchiv is just the same.

Best Wishes

[KevinD]

You apparently, only need an image that shows the hangars. I am sure that they could copy just what you require for a smaller sum than you would pay for the whole drawing.

I wouldn't hold my breath on 1, them doing that for you and 2, it costing much less. But hey, as my dear old mum used to say "there is no harm in asking".

Whatever the case, money has to be paid to obtain the information needed and with the greatest of respect, if you or anyone else, wants first-hand information then it must be paid for and the rarer the information, the more it will cost.

With all due respect, not always the case. Some folks just like to share historical info or photos and / or their own personal photos, whatever they may have cost them to get / take; just for historical sake. Of course the NMM and other similar 'institutions' are not in that boat, nor would one expect them to be.

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Either I found an error in FH kit or Prince of Wales carried some other plane's wings inside its hangar!

See pic attached.

I dry fit the Walrus wings into the hangar wall like on picture and - they stick out. So it means either hangar depth is too shallow, or wings on the wall are not from Walrus! Which one is it guys, do you know? What is happening here?

I doubt whether these wings are for a Walrus: the Walrus has rounded wing tips, but the wing on the wall has square tips with only rounded corners. Also, the type of roundel was out of use at the time the KGVs were introduced. So I think it might be a wing set of an older type. Some Fairey maybe?

I also not these are wing halves, so not full wings, so they will easily fit into the hangar, no need to have wings stored at full span length.

[EJFoeth]

1) "It does not make sense" is not a convincing argument. However, it does not make sense that you'd carry replacement wings for the wrong type of aircraft.
2) The outline in the rear follow the outline of the Walrus top and bottom wing (the bottom one with an additional flap inboard when folding).
3) As far as the roundel is concerned, seems to fit (increasing contrast of the hangared wing shows the "medium grey" outline)

ON BOARD HMS KING GEORGE V. 1941.. � IWM (A 3478) IWM Non Commercial License

After some more searching, HMS Renown's hangar, showing spare wings, plus these supports when the shutter was down

boxing on the renown.jpg

Renown 193707.jpg

[Cag]

Hi All,

Hi Aop, no problem, the NMM is a great institution and I've always found them immensely helpful.

The little thumbnail is quite blurred, for obvious reasons, and bobs up in images on Google. Of course the drawings are much clearer and are available printed in colour, having seen other ships arrangements they give details of hangar and catapult size etc, and also show what was stored in there too!

I too have the full set of PoW plans from the same NMM source, I was helped by Mr A Choong who I believe is chief archivist now, a really helpful gentleman. The main plans give little detail as regards hangar construction I'm afraid.

As previously stated by another contributor asking the NMM may be an idea, the thumbnail from Google gives you an idea of what it contains.

The aircraft hangar did indeed store spare parts stowed around the place, wheels floats wings also spare engines etc. Generally the aircraft came from 701 squadron IIRC, during the Denmark Strait PoW took a Walrus from the nearby air station of Hatston as hers was faulty.

The hangar door supports, I'd forgotten about those, so that's a good spot! Also the Renown spot too!

A while ago I had the idea of building a 1/72 Airfix Walrus, and using 3d printed 5.25 guns and scratchbuilding the hangars and catapult and building the catapult deck of a KGV.

But it was these things that bugged me (Plus the exact details of the phomene foam generators), the rails that take the aircraft trolley into the hangar are solid and non removable, I think that 90� to either side of these are two I beam rails with a similar removable section that fits in between the aircraft trolley rails so that when the door comes down it sits atop these rails and is level with the top of the trolley rails.

I can see that the hangar door supports hang off another I beam, and seem to have cogs or wheels at the top and chains or ropes. They are held in place when not in use by brackets, I couldn't find out if they pivoted or what but seem to be held in place when deployed by the top and bottom I beam, but can't be sure.

You can see some chains inside the hangar but again can't be sure if these are for some similar interior supports, or for the roller shutter door for manual release, I'd guess the latter. The supports could well be for bad weather, but also for any blast effect from the 5.25s?

I've seen the King George V ships book at the National Archives but there was nothing in there, but I'm still searching!

I hope that is, at least, of some help,
Best wishes
Cag.

[KevinD]

Hello Everyone,
However the Number is ADBB0265 and I think they do have a thumbnail of it on their plans site so you might be able to work something out?
Best wishes
Cag.

Cag, pardon my ignorance but how does one locate said image on line at NMM site?

I tried all sorts of entries / interactions and got nothing. Obviously doing something wrong!

[EJFoeth]

You can be easily forgiven as the website is a mess...

https://prints.rmg.co.uk/search?q=duke+ ... pe=product



(For instance, the main and prints page of the NMM do not show all results on their https://images.rmg.co.uk website You need to search all three, the latter probably the best)

[pascalemod]

To continue on plane theme: simple question

Was Walrus from Prince of Wales ca April - May 1941 painted all grey or did it have that greenish greyish camouflage?

I ask because on pics it just doesnt look camouflaged, but on references it does. Have we sorted this question in past? Sorry for asking if we have but just not sure here.

Is this plane camouflaged or?

[KevinD]

You can be easily forgiven as the website is a mess...

Thanks EJ! I obviously don't have a 'complete' set then, as I don't have that one, but about 10 or 11 others all in very high res.

And yes, pity a newcomer to that NMM website!

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

1) "It does not make sense" is not a convincing argument. However, it does not make sense that you'd carry replacement wings for the wrong type of aircraft.
2) The outline in the rear follow the outline of the Walrus top and bottom wing (the bottom one with an additional flap inboard when folding).
3) As far as the roundel is concerned, seems to fit (increasing contrast of the hangared wing shows the "medium grey" outline)

Hi EJ,

I fully agree, carrying a set of wings for an old Fairey floatplane doesn't make 'sense' when the aircraft on board are Walrusses. I was just looking at the wing itself and it struck me as odd. And of course I can be wrong with my judgment! The wing outline is not that easy to see. So you might be right after all that it is a Walrus wing.

As for the roundel, the one on the fuselage had a yellow outline in that period, not 'medium grey' but from a B&W picture you can't know of course. However, on wings they never had that outline. But this requires a complete lecture on the forms and variations of British aircraft roundels before and during the war, and I can better refer to Wikipedia for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_roundels