painting HMS King George V in 1943

[Ivan]

good evening gentlemen ... I hope with your help to clarify the situation with the painting KGV for 1943...I have three sources of information (mainly the Internet and books), but all of them are slightly different, but I would like to clarify the situation: 1) find out what colors all the same used. 2) schemes do not converge with photos .....
My assumption is that the primary colors are still, but I may be mistaken:
1) 507s
2) B6
3) B5
4) ms1

[Ivan]

This is b5 or b6

[dick]

I would ignore all three of your references.

It is known from 1942 reports on file at the National Archives that the original colours on KGV in this scheme were (dark to light) 507A, B5, MS4 and 507C.

In May 1943 the names of the RN camouflage paints changed and there were also (small) changes to the colour of some of them and a few deletions. So at some point in 1943 we should probably assume KGV changed to the equivalent paints in the new series: G10, B15, B30, G45.

So it depends when in 1943 you wish to depict her and when in later 1943 you think she might have had the opportunity to repaint.

The blue behind the sailor with the Bren gun would be B5. That camouflage panel is the second darkest tone in B&W photos of KGV. (Photo is dated November 1942).

[Ivan]

[quote="dick"]I would ignore all three of your references.

good afternoon ... =) ... your answer added even more thoughts to my empty head ... I think we will understand in more detail:
one more option, it is taken here : https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/
HMS King George V

As depicted in Airfix/Heller 1/400 kits - NOT UPDATED SINCE NEW RESEARCH

Admiralty Disruptive Pattern camouflage using the following on vertical surfaces:

AP 507A Admiralty Dark Grey (NARN 21);

AP 507C Admiralty Light Grey (NARN 22);

B.5 Dark Blue-Grey (NARN 33);

B.6 Medium Blue (NARN 34);

Steel decks & walkways� Dark Grey (NARN 23);

Wood decks�Teak (C 01);

Countershading�Paint the following white (C 03):

Underside of blast shields, flag decks, boats, Pom-Pom decks and other platforms;
Lockers, vents, davits, etc;
All darken ship screens, canvas covers for reels, etc.;
Lower 1/3 of gun barrels, searchlights, etc.;
Masts and crow�s nest;
Insides of gun shields;
Stanchions and other small fittings on upper deck.
Underwater hull�RN Antifouling Red (NARN 42).



We go from dark to light, the main thing that until I realized:
1) not ms1 but using 507a
2) B5
3) right here begins porridge ... B6 (B30) or MS4 .... MS4a .... this is still a mystery to me
4) Well, here everything is clear 507C

[Ivan]

so, as I plan to make it around August-September of the 43rd year .. then your second variant of coloring and who, judging by the photos, is the color of the G45 more reliable

[SovereignHobbies]

The original formula for G45 was the same as for 507C (albeit the proportions of the two different whites was reversed and there was no Pattern 12 light grey enamel added).

A1/G.45
Pattern 409 White lead oil paste ... 50lb
Pattern 371 Blue black paste ... 7lb
Pattern 104 Zinc oxide white ... 28lb
Raw linseed oil ... 11 pints
White spirit ... 10 pints
Pattern 773 Liquid dryers ... 3 pints

Warm / khaki coloured shades are not G45

Admiralty Fleet Order 2106/43 tells us

Paints of the A.1 and A.2 type have not yet been established under Admiralty pattern numbers. Since, however, the A.2 type paints have the same gloss as Admiralty Pattern 507 paints, A.2/G.10 and A.2/G45 paints are in fact the same as Admiralty Pattern 507A and 507C paints respectively.

The mid-tone on the gun barrels you see there is MS4; the photograph is dated 1942 as per Richard's post above.

[Ivan]

The mid-tone on the gun barrels you see there is MS4; the photograph is dated 1942 as per Richard's post above.[/quote]
my big mistake .... this is tower "A" and not "B"
thank you so much ... figured out a little with three shades of color...left to deal with the B6-B30



also the question arises with the coloring of the upper parts of the mast .. so as it can be seen that they differ significantly from the primary color, but also among themselves too

[elcejay]

Hello Ivan,

Working with Richard, Sean, Michael and James, I did a considerable amount of analysis of the Nov 1942 colour photos to try and determine the shades of paint on this ship. I used tools such as the mkweb color summariser http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/colorsummarizer/. It is not an exact science, but a reasonable indicator of relative colour and tone. An example is attached using IWM TR 325 (reduced in size, sorry - the original is way too large) showing what I believe to be white countershading on the barrels, along with MS4 on the turret, barrel and upper barbette, and B5 on the lower barbette. Sampling on the starboard bridge face (B turret is trained to starboard, as is probably well realised) shows a 507A band with MS4 beneath it.

Someone may be hoarding information and not sharing it with the public, but I know of no record that gives us exact information as to what the scheme was. All I can say is that I have little doubt that there are four paints on the ship in Nov 42, and they were probably still in use in Mar 43 when at Oran.

In short, I agree with Richard. The shades, in my view, are:

507A (around 11 RF)
B5 (around 15 RF)
MS4 (around 30 RF) and
507C (around 40 RF in reality, though generally described as 45 RF - that difference is not worthy of concern on a model).

Regards,
Lindsay

[Ivan]

507A (around 11 RF)
B5 (around 15 RF)
MS4 (around 30 RF) and
507C (around 40 RF in reality, though generally described as 45 RF - that difference is not worthy of concern on a model).

Good afternoon.After almost a year break due to their failures and banal laziness... I continued working on my king George 42...After reviewing the new works and materials for painting, I decided to move from 43 years to 42..on convoy wars. Sacrificing some of the anti-aircraft weapons in exchange for a cheerful gray-green MS-4 and additional boat weapons.

[Ivan]

but then I had a lot of questions about painting the whole pile of boats and boats. colors? the sides and the underwater part ..what color are the boats inside?.also the underwater part of two types of boats?.... I will be grateful for any photos and tips.With respect Ivan

[SovereignHobbies]

Richard and I did some work on the camouflage pattern for the ship overall. Colours aside, you will notice that most of the profiles available have some big areas coloured in the wrong tone of paint - i.e. they all show lots of 507C on the port side of the hull amidships. This doesn't reconcile with photographic evidence.



Notice the tone of the paint on the hull below the bridge superstructure and funnels is the same tone as the second lightest tone forward and aft.


Also refer to IWM TR325 again - the sailor with the Bren gun. B turret is trained to starboard and you can see the port face of the gunhouse. According to the profiles you shared, it should be 507C but it's very clearly painted in MS4. After some study and iterations, Richard and I arrived at this illustration.


As for the boats overall, I cannot be sure from the photos I have. It looks like the boats located on the furthest outboard cradles (i.e. the ones you can clearly see from outside the ship) are painted dark - either 507A or B5.

[mister me]

hello,

one thing that strikes me more and more is that dark parts of camo patterns (supposed to be 507a/b/hfg) appear on many pics as very dark panels, very different than a more "mid-dark" feeling of fully HFG ships !!

it's somewhat hard for me to recognize HFG in those dark panels, as no full HFG ship on pics seem to be as dark/contrasted

shall it be MS1 panels then ?

[Ivan]

Good afternoon. Well, thanks to your advice, so far it turns out like this ... I hope I was not mistaken
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=191026

P.S.Now I am correcting minor errors in the color of the case and finishing a bunch of little things

[SovereignHobbies]

hello,

one thing that strikes me more and more is that dark parts of camo patterns (supposed to be 507a/b/hfg) appear on many pics as very dark panels, very different than a more "mid-dark" feeling of fully HFG ships !!

it's somewhat hard for me to recognize HFG in those dark panels, as no full HFG ship on pics seem to be as dark/contrasted

shall it be MS1 panels then ?

I think not, partly because the appearance depends a great deal on filters and how the photographs were developed. There is an old saying that "the camera doesn't lie". That's not entirely true. With film photography there is a large degree of human influence even after the negative has been exposed. That's not sufficient an argument though.

Here is HMS Howe, a ship we believe to have been painted in the same class scheme but using an identical colour palette to her sister HMS Anson which does use MS1 as the darkest tone:

As you can see, it is virtually black.

Furthermore, I hope Richard comments on this thread as he has the actual document to hand. It is recorded in the report "Camouflage Observation Trials, Scapa 20th July - 3rd August 1942" by Graham-Hall (the same person who went by Claude Muncaster also) a comparison of HMS King George V's camouflage versus HMS Anson. I can't remember the exact wording, but the effect of the text was to infer that Anson used MS1 as the darkest paint whilst KGV wore 507A instead.

If I can find a linkable copy of photograph 80-G-81765 taken in Algiers in 1943, it shows HMS King George V moored beside HMS Howe at similar angles. The photograph allows a good comparison of the darkest tone on the starboard side of the bridge structure, and it is obvious in this photograph that HMS Howe's darkest paint is darker than HMS King George V's darkest paint.
EDIT - someone has cropped it but here it is:


Hope this helps!

[Cag]

Hi All

Hi Jamie, just a post to confirm that documents report KGV had 507a in her scheme in July of 42, I've got a copy of that report you mention, ie Adm 212/123, and it does indeed say that the KGV used 507a in place of MS1, it was requested by the CinC Home Fleet and it also notes the reflectance factor difference between the two as 9% confirming the Adm 212/124 document reflection factors (as well as other documents) of MS1 as 4% and HFG as 13% ( DoY is also mentioned in 212/123 as overall HFG with a 13% RF).

We also know that documents give the range of HFG (507a / G10) of between 10% to 13% reflectance factor.

Hi Mister me, sorry I forgot to answer your question, so I've edited here, as Jamie says judging from photography is difficult, a single tone on a ship can sometimes perhaps be skewed a little due to the surrounding paint, especially if its a lighter tone.

Jamie did do a little experiment during the research on RN paints in which a large board was painted in 507a, in different lights it looked darker and lighter, which is replicated in black and white images of ships in overall HFG.

We see this with other paints too, B5 can look dark in one light and much lighter in others, making identification a matter of looking at numerous images.

Hope that helps
Best wishes
Cag.

[dick]

An example of how one colour, in this case today's Royal Navy's modern Light Weatherwork Grey BS381c No. 676 with RF 39% can appear a range of different tones on two ships in just one photo depending on sunlight, cloud and angles etc:

[Mr. Church]

Interesting discussion, I had a Heller 1/400 kit years ago and always wondered about the correct colours for this particular scheme.

Are there possibly some additional areas of 507C on the port side as per below?

HMS King George V.jpg

There looks to be wedge shaped patch in a lighter colour on the forward face of the aft superstructure. Thin end of the wedge to starboard and getting deeper towards the port side and extending around the structure below the raised 5.25 inch turret. Lighter patches also possibly on the structure supporting the HACS directors and on the aft main battery director.

Granted the 5.25 inch turret and structure below are curved which can distort things and make them look lighter, but the difference seems quite noticeable on the forward face of the aft superstructure?

[dick]

I don�t think there was any change in colour in the P3 5.25� area.

KGV P3.jpg

The diagonal wedge would be the MS4 camouflage panel. I have no really clear pictures of KGV in this area but, allowing for ship to ship variations, see Anson and Howe in this area for roughly what it must have done.

I don�t see anything really light under the 5.25� director in my photo, but a hint of some vertical division perhaps?

It seems there was at one point an odd square of something lighter on the aft face of the main armament's aft director support. There is a very defined vertical in my portside shot above, and in these that show the starboard side's vertical edge to it, so not really part of the curvy camouflage pattern:

KGV aft tones.jpg

It�s there in some pictures:

KGV 1943 7ish.jpg

But seemingly not in others:.

KGV 1943 2.jpg

Strange, but then changes of detail from repaint to repaint, which could be every couple of months or so, are probably to be expected. Could perhaps have been something a bit bigger there that shrank away to nothing over time?

[dick]

Actually, zooming in even further below the 5.25" director I now think I see two verticals. It's as if the light stripe on the front face of the director itself is repeated below, perhaps as some form of alignment marking for calibration purposes?

KGV director alignment.jpg

[Ivan]

Colleagues, good afternoon. Thank you so much, you are constantly helping me out of this situation, I simply do not have the opportunity to have such a rich photo archive, and as we move along the model, new questions arise. Today I raise questions about the "pom-pom" ... I have already noticed that the life rafts did not have their own color but were part of camouflage., But what color did they have antiaircraft guns ??? .. If I am not mistaken, those that were on the gun turrets were MC4 ... but then the side ones should be of different colors depending on the side. Also, do you think you painted the Oerlikon deck mounts or not ...