Calling all King George V-class (WWII) fans

[KevinD]

But isn't there some definitive evidence from the wreck?

Long and short answer; no. No hull colour visible on PoW.

I am not sure how deep you need to go before the hull colour / camo is preserved. I assume very very deep (say as deep as the wrecks Paul Alan's gang found for instance).

Certainly ships in 'shallow' water (in the tropics), say less than 150m / 600ft - unless having only relatively recently sunk - do not hold their exterior colours for long as the oxidization just eats it away. I have personally never seen hull colour on any exterior hull down to 130m/430ft (on WWII era ships).

[MartinJQuinn]

Thanks gents. Somewhere in one of the discussions on the lower hull color, I thought I saw photos of contemporary KGV models, which had the dark hull.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Hi Mr Quinn, yes I think you're right, perhaps a builders model?

Hello Paul, I'll check my Middlebrook book of descriptions of the sinking to see what I can find, I think I've got the Bucknill report too somewhere.

Hello KevinD, if anyone knows the state of the hulls it would be you, having dived on the wrecks. I've had a look at the 1960's dive reports and it says growth on lower parts of the wrecks but the upper parts, ie the lower hull as the wrecks are upturned, relatively free of marine growth. Unfortunately no mention of anti fouling colours, just that from the surface the "silvery shape" of Repulse was quite clear, and that Prince of Wales's dark shape was visible from the air.

Hopefully within the foreseeable future a trip to the archives will be possible and a more firm guesstimate will be possible.

Best wishes
Cag.

[KevinD]

............I think I've got the Bucknill report too somewhere.

Cag, if you - or anyone - actually has a copy of the Bucknill Report PLEASE let me know!

[PaulC]

Long and short answer; no. No hull colour visible on PoW.

Thanks Kevin. I knew you'd respond to that! I wasn't sure if some vestiges of the paint may have remained.

Cag, hope you find something!

[dick]

Martin,

In case you have not seen it, I have written a short paper on the general subject of RN ships� bottoms which Sovereign Hobbies is hosting here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0730/ ... 1607064831

As stated therein, we await the re-opening of The National Archives at Kew to enable the D.495 forms in the Ships� Books that survive (in the case of the KGV Class KGV, DoY, Anson and Howe) to be examined. These should tell us the answer re the colour of their bottoms.

In the meantime the builder�s model of KGV indicates a dull brown-red and that of Howe a slightly brownish red very much like the colour of Colourcoats RN NARN 42: https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/coll ... ouling-red

Best wishes

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Martin,
...
In the meantime the builder�s model of KGV indicates a dull brown-red and that of Howe a slightly brownish red very much like the colour of Colourcoats RN NARN 42: https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/coll ... ouling-red

Best wishes

Mmmm, I agree these show brownish red. But this was also the case with all the 'builder's models' (or thought to be similarly accurate models) of HMS Hood: http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models ... llery3.htm
But we learned recently that the real bottom colour of HMS Hood had been grey instead! So what's the real worth of the builder's models then?

[dick]

Martin,
...
In the meantime the builder�s model of KGV indicates a dull brown-red and that of Howe a slightly brownish red very much like the colour of Colourcoats RN NARN 42: https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/coll ... ouling-red

Best wishes

Mmmm, I agree these show brownish red. But this was also the case with all the 'builder's models' (or thought to be similarly accurate models) of HMS Hood: http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/models ... llery3.htm
But we learned recently that the real bottom colour of HMS Hood had been grey instead! So what's the real worth of the builder's models then?

My understanding is that there is no contemporary builder's model of HMS Hood (ie something built by apprentices at John Brown at the time Hood was built) but that some years later (1938?) Bassett-Lowke, a toy manufacturer based miles away in the English East Midlands town of Northampton, were commissioned to build a model for John Brown for an exhibition.

The current real worth of builders' models is that they show a range of colours (black, grey, brown, green, red) so supporting what can be found in the archives that it was wrong to assume, as many people have done hitherto, that all RN ships' bottoms were post box red.

The veracity or otherwise of the colour of KGV's and Howe's builder's models bottoms will be confirmed when we can see those ships' D495's. In the meantime I was simply answering Martin's question about those models.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Hello KevinD, I think I have the report only as extracted from the full files that I guess include witness testimony. I've got the report, conclusions and recommendations if thats of any interest?

Hopefully as Richard suggests, the reopening of archives will answer some questions, but during my research I've often found one answer reveals half a dozen more questions!

Best wishes
Cag.

[KevinD]

Hello KevinD, I think I have the report only as extracted from the full files that I guess include witness testimony. I've got the report, conclusions and recommendations if thats of any interest?Cag.

Interest you ask? I am all EARS!!

Will send you a PM.

Hopefully as Richard suggests, the reopening of archives will answer some questions, but during my research I've often found one answer reveals half a dozen more questions

Yes, re now underlined above, just as we found on many of the wrecks we discovered.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Hello Mr Quinn, I've taken a look at all the books I have on the sinking, Middlebrook and Mahoney, Brooke, etc etc etc even the Electra book, and only found two observations of hull colours.

One from O Dowd Gallagher on Repulse who reported her lower hull as looking "very light red", and Geoffrey Brooke stating Prince of Wales hull looking "brown", but he also describes the boot topping as brown too.

I do know PoW was in dock just prior to sailing and her hull was scraped, a lot of descriptions mention how clean her hull was when she capsized.

If I find anything new I'll let you know.

Hello KevinD no problem I'll await your message.

Best wishes
Cag.

[pascalemod]

I do know PoW was in dock just prior to sailing and her hull was scraped, a lot of descriptions mention how clean her hull was when she capsized.
.

People would remember the hull condition when it capsizes, as on an upturned, fouled up hull with sharp barnacles it would be a quite awful experience for the poor sailors. So the testimony is worth something for sure. Recall Barham when capsized had reports the lower hull was in pretty used shape. Also, wonder of course what color it was now.

[MartinJQuinn]

Thanks everyone, appreciate the insight of so many knowledgeable folks.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Hi Pascalemod, yes although in the books on the sinking there are descriptions (despite the lack of growth) of people still receiving injury after sliding down her side from shell plating, rivets etc. I'm sure those from Repulse had a worse time as she was still steaming as she turned over.

My uncle was one of the pompom gunners, despite being wounded he was only released from duty as she began to roll, he managed to get down the side and fearing the suction saw a raft and pulled himself into the life ropes, he was dragged down for a short time but came to the surface attached to the raft.

He surfaced minus most of his clothes and having large pressure wounds where ropes dug into his back. Thankfully he was rescued and once back in Singapore was evacuated to Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) to recover.

Once back in the UK he became an instructor at the anti aircraft training establishment.

That's why it's so nice to see models of all of these ships, it keeps up the memory of those who served aboard them alive, so thanks again for your lovely rendition of "the Prince".

Best wishes
Cag.

[KevinD]

People would remember the hull condition when it capsizes, as on an upturned, fouled up hull with sharp barnacles it would be a quite awful experience for the poor sailors. So the testimony is worth something for sure.

Re my now underlined; only if that testimony is recorded very shortly after the event. In my experience from diving many WWII wrecks, and having met or conversed with many survivors from said ships, their recollection / remembrance of damage, etc, was often found to be in more cases than not, inaccurate / incorrect many years after the event, and I mean no slight whatsoever on their memories by any means. As a matter of fact I rarely if ever challenged them on their version of events / damage. But the steel doesn't lie, nor do photographs of said damage, or lack there-of.

Recall Barham when capsized had reports the lower hull was in pretty used shape. Also, wonder of course what color it was now.

How deep is it where she sank?

[KevinD]

.......................although in the books on the sinking there are descriptions (despite the lack of growth) of people still receiving injury after sliding down her side from shell plating, rivets etc. I'm sure those from Repulse had a worse time as she was still steaming as she turned over.

You may be surprised at how quickly marine growth grows on ships, and especially so in warmer waters. I imagine PoW then would have had enough growth, while not necessarily 'stand-out-visible' so to speak, was still enough to tear skin when sliding over same down the hull. And then as you say, rivet heads and plating joints simply added more insult to injury.

How long (when sunk) had it been since PoW had been dry-docked?

My uncle was one of the pompom gunners, despite being wounded he was only released from duty as she began to roll, he managed to get down the side and fearing the suction saw a raft and pulled himself into the life ropes, he was dragged down for a short time but came to the surface attached to the raft.

Quite and experience no doubt, and I tip my hat to him! He was on PoW, correct?

He surfaced minus most of his clothes and having large pressure wounds where ropes dug into his back. Thankfully he was rescued and once back in Singapore was evacuated to Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) to recover.

'Lucky' him in a way. Many survivors from PoW (and I believe Repulse) were, if Marines, sent north into Malaya as troops, or for sailors ended up on ships that went south into the Java Sea (in HMS Exeter for instance) and subsequently were either lost or spent the rest of the war in Jap prison camps.

[EJFoeth]

(You all know it, I'm sure, but) Bamboo Years by John G. Pike makes a great read on that subject.

[Cag]

Hi All,

Hi KevinD, I've sent you a PM on the Bucknill report, yes he was on Prince of Wales, he joined at Birkenhead in January of 41. Yes he was lucky, I thinks his wounds were not healing so he was transferred away, he felt very guilty at not being with his mates.

I think PoW was in dock days before she sailed, her boiler tubes needed work after her voyage out but it had to be postponed, she fired her 5.25's in defence of Singapore when it was attacked by Japanese bombers. Some of her RDF sets were out of action too and couldn't be repaired prior to sailing.

Hi Evert Jan, yes I've got that book, you're quite correct it is a very good account of his time on PoW and being a prisoner of war. Geoffrey Brooke also shares his adventures sailing from the Durch East Indies to Ceylon in his book Alarm Starboard.

Best wishes
Cag.

[Bob the Stug]

Hi, this is my first post, i usually build armour mainly the StuG, but have started to build ships

I am about to start the Tamiya 1 350 KGV, can someone advise

What colour should the propshafts be, Tamiya say same colour as the props, i have also heard same as the hull??

Also colour of the ships boats? I have looked at the great builds on the site but theres a big differance of colours on the shafts and boats

Sorry my first post is a question

Regards bob

[dick]

The shafts should have been the same colour as the ship's bottom as their top coat was supposed to be the same anti-fouling paint.