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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:10 pm 
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It was doors. It appears they may have been removable.

The Aftermarket 15cm guns that I have in 1/400 and 1/350 scale, do not have these doors included but I have a photo reference from Wolfgang Harnack (copyrighted), that shows doors on the forward guns too.
There are some "builds" by other modelers that do show PE doors added to these mounts on their Graf Spee models.

I suspect my fabric reference may have been based on some other photo I remembered.

Thanks to all who set the record straight.

Nino


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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:02 am 
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I'm thinking it was more likely that the canvas covered opening was pre-war, and the metal doors were added right before hostilities started.

There are very clear photos of the backs of the mounts in Koop & Schmolke that show the canvas rolled up & tied above the openings of the mounts and no doors, but they are all dated 1938 or earlier.

Drastic's photo clearly shows the metal doors during the river Platte action, so we know they were there then.

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 10:36 am 
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Are you not thinking of the armored covers on the torpedo launchers? They had a roll-up canvas cover over the rear end.
:wave_1:


Last edited by drasticplastic on Fri May 08, 2020 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 11:01 am 
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Timmy C wrote:
You know, I would not be at all surprised if the sets of guns facing aft when at rest are equipped with the metal doors, while the ones facing forward would have the canvas: it'd be a decent way to balance weight with the primary need for protection from water and spray coming from the front of the ship.

This shot of the forward gun shields at Montevideo also shows open doors - you can just see a shadow line of the edge of the door:
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-con ... spee41.jpg
:wave_1:


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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:21 pm 
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[quote="drasticplastic]Are you not thinking of the armored covers on the torpedo launchers? They had a roll-up canvas cover over the rear end.[/quote]

Nope...

I apologize if the pics aren't very good quality. I'm downstairs and my scanner is upstairs, and I don't feel like dragging it down. So I took these pics with my iPhone. :heh:

Pictures are from Pocket Battleships of the Deutschland Class by Gerhard Koop and Klaus-Peter Schmolke.

The first pic is an undated photo of Deutschland/Lutzow, pre war:

Attachment:
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Rolled canvas, no doors.

The second pic is Deutschland/Lutzow in '45:

Attachment:
Lutzow 45.jpg
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The doors are clearly present now.

This last pic is Graf Spee in '38. No doors. You can't really see any canvas, either, but there clearly aren't any doors.

Attachment:
Spee 38.jpg
Spee 38.jpg [ 83.29 KiB | Viewed 1404 times ]


That's why I think they were added just prior to the war....

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:25 pm 
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Elvis965 wrote:
[quote="drasticplastic]

I apologize if the pics aren't very good quality. I'm downstairs and my scanner is upstairs, and I don't feel like dragging it down. So I took these pics with my iPhone. :heh:
[/quote]


Thank you. Those photos were more than clear enough to resolve the great mystery for me.

I appreciate the effort!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:23 pm 
I know the question is now settled, but I just thought I would muddy the waters a bit with this pic of one of Gneisenau's 5.9" guns, later in the war, on the Eastern Front!

file:///C:/Users/Joe/Pictures/secondary%20armament.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Graf Spee question
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 12:36 pm 
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Moose, you're linking to your computer's harddrive so we can't see it ;)

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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 8:45 pm 
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Well I think that you solved the metal or canvas issue related to the secondary armament to the Graf Spee. They were all metal during the war, don’t know when they installed them. Eduard PE for Trumpeter Graf Spee provides the doors.

Marco


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 12:17 pm 
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Couple pictures of the 150mm cannons turrets metal doors, Graf Spee. The one from Alamy is a pre-war shot, staged, I can´t confirm if it was Graf Spee or not. The other one is Graf Spee, South Atlantic, during WWII, not usual to see the doors closed. Metal doors only purpose must have been only to keep weather out, as the cannons could not be operated with the doors closed, and they were too flimsy to shield the gunners from nothing.

Image

Image

Marco


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:13 pm 
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Fellow Graf Spee students,

I have the 1/350 Academy model. For me, I have a radical plan for it--put it on a water base with shell splashes if possible, and show damage to it from known gunfire hits. I have the Kagero book plus German Pocket Battleships 1939-45 and Pocket Battleships of the Deutschland class.

For anyone else with an interest in the hits she took, please see photos to follow shortly (edit - photos added below). One set of 2 shows an entry and exit wound on each side of the tower. The port side tower also has shell holes on the Admiral bridge cowling and possibly on the rangefinder bulkhead. The starboard rangefinder bulkhead for sure has a hole in it.

Marco, whose incredible model you can see here-- viewtopic.php?t=167037

has graciously shared a few more with me that are self explanatory.

The other books mention a "midships fire" and a hit to the base of the stack that took out the desalination and oil purification plants. No photo seems to reveal that hit. Page 44 of the Kagero book shows what looks like a machine with air vents just forward of the SL 4 director at the base of the stack. The other side has a similar device but the director shields it. My guess, which I will probably never prove, is that this machine was the one critical to the plants above.

Pages 91/144 of the Deutschland book show the deck railings on the deck when the guns are fired. I was not aware of that before. Any of you who would like those photos please contact me.

I have a few questions if any of you can help me. If you have a plan showing where the galleys, fire control room, ward room were I would appreciate a copy. Apparently Graf Spee laid white smoke several times during her final battle. From where? The stack which shows dark smoke? From the round device visible on the port stern in a few pre and post battle photos?
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Last edited by MartinJQuinn on Wed Feb 03, 2021 3:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
merged into Deutschland class thread and fixed URL


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:34 pm 
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For anyone else interested in hits to Graf Spee--

Please see this site---
https://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/digital ... l8/id/4347

It contains photos and damage descriptions for every hit on Graf Spee, both apparently courtesy of the Uruguay government. My guess is a lot of them have not been on the net before.

The damage to the desal/fuel purification plants is not mentioned. Appears the Germans wisely refused to disclose it. If you take a look at the upper page bars that read xx of 87 I think there are 2 crucial pages to look at--36 of 87 and 47 of 87. Hit 6 seems to be a prime candidate, close to the stack as stated in a few references. If not 6 then 7 seems to be the alternate candidate.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:27 am 
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Excellent topic, Fred, I was not aware of such extensive document describing the damage, started checking it yesterday, thank you!

Marco


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:15 pm 
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Last edited by Timmy C on Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
merged into Deutschland class thread - please use the "New Reply" button in this section, thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:19 pm 
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Graf Spee Model Builders,

While researching a model of this ship I have started I got several pubs related to it, some of them pretty old. One pub, Pocket Battleships of the Deutschland Class, had several educational photos in it. One topic, the presumably black boot stripe on all 3 ships of the class was more narrow than as portrayed in the Kagero 3D book, otherwise very accurate best I can figure out. The test shot in the post above came from that book.

Another topic this ship had smoke generator gizmos on it that seem to have worked like giant smoke grenades.

Before I screw this post up, I will end it and try to post the relevant photos in the next post.

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 Post subject: GRAF SPEE BOOT STRIPES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:23 pm 
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Boot stripe photos below


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:49 pm 
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PHOTOS ON THIS POST. By the way other photos in the book show that deck railings were lowered inboard when guns were fired. The stern photo on this post seems to suggest those were lowered outboard. The caption above belongs with the bottom photo. See the very close range photo at this site for a view of how these devices were mounted on the deck.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/c6/8c/0a/c68c ... ad6d5e.jpg
See this site for a photo of a black device looking very similar on the port stern of the ship post battle----http://www.sixtant.net/2011/artigos.php?cat=raider-admiral-graf-spee-*-8-ships-sunk&sub=battle-of-the-river-plate-&tag=19)graf-spee-eagle-recovered


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:35 pm 
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FRED BRANYAN wrote:
Graf Spee Model Builders,

While researching a model of this ship I have started I got several pubs related to it, some of them pretty old. One pub, Pocket Battleships of the Deutschland Class, had several educational photos in it. One topic, the presumably black boot stripe on all 3 ships of the class was more narrow than as portrayed in the Kagero 3D book, otherwise very accurate best I can figure out. The test shot in the post above came from that book.


A late reply, but in case it is still of some use? There are not may photos of the class in drydock that clearly show the boot topping. Or if there are, I have not seen them. Best one I can think of that clearly shows it is this one from Wikipedia showing the bombed and sunk remains of the Admiral Scheer in 1945:

Attachment:
Kiel,_Royal_Air_Force_Bomber_Command,_1942-1945_CL2772.jpg
Kiel,_Royal_Air_Force_Bomber_Command,_1942-1945_CL2772.jpg [ 74.88 KiB | Viewed 238 times ]


She was in overall light grey at the time so the dark grey boot topping stands out well and you can gauge the thickness of the line relative to the rest of the hull.


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