Calling all HMS Erin, Canada & Agincourt (WWI) fans

[bruno_koob]

Hi All,
i am currently building the Flyhawk HMS Agincourt and have a colour-question:
If i look at this picture, are the turret tops painted dark or painted the same as the hull?
And the waterline looks like a light colour too, maybe white?
Best regards!

[Guest]

Bruno,

A word of caution.

That photograph was, I believe, taken shortly before the ship was "taken over" by the Royal Navy. I understood that when I first saw it some time ago, that it reflected the paint scheme that the ship would have been in had she actually made to her intended owners: Turkey.

[bruno_koob]

Hi Guest,
ok, i am no Royal Navy Expert, this scheme is on the back of the Box marked as 1915. I checked with the drawing from Atma (?) posted some time ago and it looks like she had the anti-torpedo nets, searchlights, and other items removed by 1915. I think Flyhawk too looked at that drawing.
Best regards

[Guest]

Bruno,

Thanks. I did not intend to question whether or not you were a RN expert. There is no such thing as an "expert" anyway, in my opinion. Regrettably, Atma's post has been deleted, so I cannot comment on it, nor can I comment on the accuracy of Flyhawk's painting instructions.

The photograph that you posted was shown me by a very reliable source and it was determined that it shows the ship before she was "taken over" by Britain: she is not flying the white ensign.

I cannot write with any confidence but it does show the ship after the "flying boat decks" had been removed. The net defence has not been installed, probably because she was not in RN service at the time. The ship did receive this and kept it (subject to further information) until after the Battle of Jutland. The ship still has her after (mizen?) mast; which was later removed.

[pascalemod]

May be it is not a white boot topping, but red antifouling showing through. Thus, dark hull, red antifouling paint.

[SovereignHobbies]

I understand that Perkins was not always correct, but in his volume "British Warship Recognition - The Perkins Identification Albums Volume 1: Capital Ships 1895-1939" it narrates that Agincourt was laid down for Brazil, sold to Turkey in January 1914 as Sultan Osman I and bought by Great Britain in August 1914. His illustrations show HMS Agincourt received into British service still with maintopmast, flying deck between funnels, no searchlight platforms on the Samson post and torpedo nets installed.

It's possible he got the timeline wrong, but clearly the photograph above is configured the same as his "1915-1916" sketch which is summarised by the inverse of the above noted features. Notes A-C below the sketch state nets, rig (i.e. maintopmast) and flying deck were removed in 1914, whilst note D states that the searchlights on the Samson post were removed in 1915. Below these is an unnumbered note to claim "On joining G.F. painting dark hull, lighter upperworks, (Temp.)"

[Guest]

Perkins may possibly be wrong: I am probably wrong. Thank you, James! Speculation about the reason for the temporary paint scheme would be interesting but I will not pursue it.

[Guest]

James and anyone else interested in "The Gin Palace"

The following has been extracted from Dr Oscar Parkes' great work. It will serve to correct any errors that I posted in my 10.16am 19 Feb. The ship was acquired by Turkey in early 1914. The ship was docking at Devonport, when war was beginning to look possible. Her detention was arranged on sundry accounts (I've always understood that her being taken by the UK was actually a big factor in Turkey declaring war on us), however, various modifications were effected to fit the ship for RN service including removal of the boat bridges and the net defence. The main tripod mast (after one) was removed in 1916 and a short pole mast substituted. This was later dispensed with and the big derrick pole fitted with a topmast for WT. The bridge was enlarged in 1918 and the searchlights were re-grouped in towers around the after funnel.

Parkes; who served in the ship for a time, makes no mention of the paint scheme shown in the attachment to Bruno's first post. Without information from an official source, I would therefore take Perkins as read but sadly this still leaves Bruno's two part question unanswered.

[DougC]

Did they refund the price to Turkey?

[Guest]

If the British government ever did, Doug, I've never seen it printed anywhere. However, they may have written the sum "off" as "reparations!" Parkes does say that AGINCOURT was retained briefly after hostilities in the hope that Brazil might want to take her over!

[JC_4130]

Building the Flyhawk kit makes me wonder: After the midships flying bridge was removed, most of the ship's boats were stowed on the deck abreast the 4th turret (turret 'Thursday'). What happened to them in action? They block much of the the training arcs of the turret. Even if they cleared, the muzzle blast would certainly destroy them...

(Edited to add: Apparently the boats would be left in port if action was anticipated, and presumably tossed overboard if it was unexpected)

[MartinJQuinn]

Started work on an Iron Shipwright 1/350 HMS Canada. Anyone know what the color of the lower hull was?

[iangazeley]

On the subject of the appearance of Agincourt, with dark hull and light upper-works:

At the behest of C-in-C, the colour of Grand Fleet Battleships was changed to Light Grey, commencing 20 August 1914 and complete by 31 August 1914 (the time-line for changing the colour of ships of the Battle Cruiser Squadrons differed from this). In broad terms, battleships appearance was changed in two stages - upper-works and funnels first, then their hulls. For those ships about to join the GF, orders were sent to fitting out yards and to the Captains of the ships. In the case of Agincourt, Orders were sent to the Captain and Admiralty Supt. Newcastle-on-Tyne, to paint the topmasts and funnels light grey before the ship sailed to Loch Ewe. All these Orders were communicated by cypher, copies of which are extant at The National Archives. In addition, at this stage boot-topping was dispensed with (again communicated via cypher message). The photo posted above can therefore be dated to about a 10 day period in late August 1914.

The focus of my research is ships of the Battlecruiser Squadrons, but they form part of a broader pattern of change in appearance of HM ships.