Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[Rick E Davis]

"USS Forrest DD-461",

USS FORREST (DD-461), built at the Boston Navy Yard, was completed in April 1942 to the standard configuration for "Repeat-Gleaves Class" units. Because the planned two twin 40-mm mounts were not yet available, one quad 1.1-in mount was installed on the starboard side, and five 20-mm guns. Initially she was painted in Ms 12R(mod). By October 1942 she had repainted to Ms 22 with the same armament. In February-March 1943, completing about 25 March 1943, FORREST was upgraded to the standard two twin 40-mm mounts and seven single 20-mm guns at Norfolk Navy Yard. (DANFS skips over this) She remained in this configuration until converting to the DMS configuration (as DMS-24) in November 1944. The DMS configuration that FORREST was modified to, retained three 5-in/38cal guns, two twin 40-mm mounts, and seven 20-mm guns. The 54 mount and torpedo tubes were removed to accommodate the minesweeping gear. Any additional guns added isn't known by me. Likely no additional 20-mm guns would have been added, due to a lack of space for such a weapon. Adding 50-cal MGs around the ship was actually a pretty common installation late in WWII to counter floating mines and "Kamikaze Boats". In the last image I posted, you can see two 50-cal MG's atop the pilothouse.

Her operational history is outlined in DANFS, as an escort for USS RANGER and various convoys, plus D-Day support. More specifics can be found on Fold3 in her War Diaries. An interesting mission, was her escort mission and assignment to serve with the RN Home Fleet in the summer-fall of 1943. I have her noted as being assigned to DesRon 10, DesDiv 20. She could have been reassigned at some point, but I don't have that info. Her unit assignment was as a DMS was I believe with MineDiv 58.

[USS Forrest DD-461]

Wow!!!! Thank you very much for posting such excellent photo's and a great rundown of DD-461's history. Yes, you are correct in that it's last assignment in 1945 was with MinDiv 58 (MinRon 20). (I have an interesting crewmember anecdote about one of the 50cals a few days before the kamikaze strike of May 27th 1945). I have seen 229313/335595/15821 photo's before but never with such resolution. Thanks again for posting! The March 25th 1943 is completely new to me. Do you have a primary source reference for the yard overhaul order(s) for the new weapon configuration that I could look up? I would like to share some of the ship's photos I have located but they average 5MB: can you explain how I can downsize them for attachment? Thank you.

[Rick E Davis]

I have one revision to make to what I wrote before. After I looked at the 25 March 1943 photos again and thought about them, I suspect that USS FORREST was upgraded with the twin 40-mm mounts earlier, likely late 1942 or early 1943 after Operation Torch. I say that because the circles on the photos indicate "modifications" made during that yard period. The only circles are to relocation of the searchlight and relocation of the Mk 51 directors further inboard and raised. BINGO!! I just checked the Weekly Overhaul Reports that I have copied at NARA, and by pure chance (I have VERY few pages of these reports for Norfolk Navy Yard!!!) I captured FORREST's work at NorNY when the twin 40-mm armament upgrade was accomplished. See attachment. She arrived at the yard on 30 Jan 1943, and completed in early February 1943 or or after 9 February 1943. I don't have the actual finish date, since it would have shown up in a subsequent report I don't have. But, by checking DANFS for DesRon mates also at NorNY for similar work, I found that USS CORRY (DD-461) departed Norfolk for duty on 13 February 1943. That means that these three destroyers likely finished on time to the projected 9 February 1943 date authorized to finish the work, or shortly after that day. It normally took a day or two to do a checkout of work done cruise and to ready the ship for sea duty.



The only way you can find the detailed yard period work you are looking for on USS FORREST, is to go to NARA II, College Park, MD and pull her BuShips Textual Records and look for Departure Reports (or hire someone to do it for you). But like everything else, NARA is closed. There are rumblings that they MAY open yet this summer, but not likely before early August.

As to posting images, you can post images of a smaller size in data and pixels directly via the "Upload Attachments" function below. But, you would need to really downsize 5MB images to do that. The method I use is utilizing an image hosting service like Photobucket. I pay for this service with Photobucket, but there are other services out there, some that are free as long as you don't post too much. I have not looked at what services are available for quite sometime, so I can't recommend any for your needs.

Also, you want, you can PM me in this forum and we can arrange for me to post them here for you.

[USS Forrest DD-461]

Another fantastic data set - thank you! Mystery solved in such short order. Amazing.

Reference's for DesRon 10 and MinRon 20:

https://destroyerhistory.org/benson-gle ... /desron10/
https://destroyerhistory.org/benson-gle ... /minron20/

[MartinJQuinn]

Wow. That's an unusual camouflage scheme for 1945, isn't it?

[Rick E Davis]

Martin,

I had forgotten about this photo that I scanned at NARA back in 2015. Initially, I was surprised at this date that a DMS was still painted in dazzle. But, going to Lee Johnson's website and to the GLEAVES class DMS conversions ... http://www.usndazzle.com/design.php?cat ... for_num=19 ... it turns out that all of the first group of twelve converted units were assigned this pattern (Ms 32a/29D) or a couple of other patterns (Ms 32/3D(rev), Ms 32/25D and Ms32a/22D). The period prior to Okinawa Invasion, saw many Pacific units being repainted during the return of Ms 21 and Ms 22. But, I do have a few photos of some units still painted in dazzle into April 1945.

Reading Lee's notes for Ms 32a/29D, he couldn't find a drawing for this pattern and apparently the darker paint varied as well.

I miss Lee. For a longtime whenever I was at NARA, Lee would be there.

[USS Forrest DD-461]

Thanks to all who have assisted my endeavor. With the information available in the thread, I believe there is enough data to proceed with my project. My intent is to construct three models of the USS Forrest depicting three general phases of its service history: early (1942 Operation TORCH timeframe); mid-war (1944 Operation NEPTUNE timeframe); late-war (1945 Operation ICEBERG timeframe). All comments, advice, and insight is very welcome. Thank you.

[David Sandifer]

Matt, what progress has Kraken Hobbies & Red Devil Designs made on Gleaves class square bridge (see above p58, 27MAR2021 and p55, 05JUL2020) conversion sets and also on Rick's suggestions for additional DESDIV22 (see above p55, 07JUL2020) conversion sets? Your earlier previews seemed so promising. R/David

[Kraken Hobbies]

what progress has Kraken Hobbies & Red Devil Designs made on Gleaves class square bridge

David,

Apologies for the confusion. Justin over at Red Devil is now up and running with his own printer and releasing sets. He currently has an eBay shop but I know he is working on a website similar to Kraken's. You can find the parts he is doing now here-

With 20mm Bandstand
Without 20mm Bandstand

HTH,
Matt

[David Sandifer]

Justin at Red Devil Designs,
The 1/350 Gleaves Class Square Bridge Conversion Set with 20mm Tub/Ammo Box was delivered today. It's OUTSTANDING!
Please consider designing a WWII USN DMS conversion set, similar to the Black Cat Models AC350087 Royal Navy WWII Minesweeping Gear.
I'll combine a USN minesweeping suite, your Gleaves Class Square Bridge, and a Dragon 1945 Benson DD to build a DEC44 Harding DMS28 in ms 32/3D.
R/David

[jester63]

Justin at Red Devil Designs,
The 1/350 Gleaves Class Square Bridge Conversion Set with 20mm Tub/Ammo Box was delivered today. It's OUTSTANDING!
Please consider designing a WWII USN DMS conversion set, similar to the Black Cat Models AC350087 Royal Navy WWII Minesweeping Gear.
I'll combine a USN minesweeping suite, your Gleaves Class Square Bridge, and a Dragon 1945 Benson DD to build a DEC44 Harding DMS28 in ms 32/3D.
R/David

David, thank you! I'm glad they arrived safe! I look forward to your build!! keep us posted, please!! I will look into that conversion! I've got a bit on the plan board at the moment, but I'll give it a gander when I get a chance!

[USS Forrest DD-461]

Caption: "USS Macomb sets sail from Boston for Panama" Date: April 1st 1947

[Guest]

Greetings to all Benson/Gleaves-class fans.
Got a couple of questions, would be very grateful if anyone could help me out.

No. 1. This is a picture of USS Livermore DD-429. What I am unsure of is which camouflage measure does she wear in the picture, what configuration of AA armament is present on the ship and when could this picture have been taken? Navsource doesn't indicate the date, sadly. Could this by any chance be the exact same configuration as Dragon's model represents, camouflage aside?
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix1/0542907.jpg

No. 2. In this picture of the same ship there seems to be 2 extra objects around the director base (5 as opposed to 3). Am I seeing things or is there actually something there and what could it be?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 429_01.jpg

Any additional pictures are also welcome if anyone is willing to share.

Thank you all in advance.

[Dick J]

Your first photo shows her in 1945 after an anti-kamikaze upgrade. She has quad 40MM just forward of mount 53 (#3 5" gun) and twin 40MM between the stacks. All torpedo tubes have been removed. She also has a MK-25 radar dish on the MK-37 director and the short ECM mast aft. Camo is MS-21, but from the photo, it can't be determined whether she is in Navy Blue, or the Navy Gray adopted when the blue pigment ran out.

As for the second photo, I am unsure what objects you are referring to.

[BB62vet]

Guest Wrote:

No. 2. In this picture of the same ship there seems to be 2 extra objects around the director base (5 as opposed to 3). Am I seeing things or is there actually something there and what could it be?

The objects located on the outer surface of the Main Battery Director barbette are called "peep holes" although that's a rather generic term. Those are actually either round or oval openings or viewports in the sides of the barbette, more than likely equally spaced on either side of the barbette. They are very similar to the ones that originally were located on the conning tower of the IOWA class in that that they have angled openings to deflect possible incoming rounds or shrapnel from close bursts. These ports have covers which can be lowered to close off these ports when needed. As the picture is still a bit distant, I can't tell if those ports have retractable (geared) covers or hinged covers. The inside opening is thus smaller than the outside due to the angle of the opening.

Hope this helps,

[Fliger747]

The director barbettes on the destroyers only had anti splinter plating? Not sure but probably 20 lb plate max? This would allow for a fairly simple closure as opposed to those on the heavily armored battleship conning towers. Top weight was quite critical in these ships. It would be interesting to see drawings or photos of just how these worked. Alaska CB1 had similar viewing slits on her aft MK 37 Barbette but she probably could have allowed a heavier plating.

Best regards: Tom

[cheyenovich]

Hi Rick?

I�ve read this topic in detail, which greatly enriched my knowledge.What a wonderful forum!

Recently I'm building some 1/700 desron12 tincans, and I noticed your photo about Buchanan (the last picture, shows buke's foremast on 24 August 1943). It seems there�s a mascot on the side of the Mk37 director. I'm certain that it's neither the ship's scoreboard (shown on the bridge wings) nor the "Scrapperoos" symbol (not appeared until the Rabaul strike). I really wonder if it's an early version of desron12's symbol or just the mascot of buchanan herself.

Do you have a clearer version of the photo, or any ideas about buchanan's mascot? I tried to search on navsource and NHHC, but they didn't show this photo.

Thanks,
Pan

Matthew,


Here is a view of USS BUCHANAN ... 24 August 1943 ... even at this date, she still doesn't have a SG radar installed but does have a stovepipe BL antenna (installed on port yardarm)

[Rick E Davis]

Pan,

Actually what you think is a "badge/mascot", is actually canvas around the rangefinder of the Mk 37 director.

I have three different views of USS BUCHANAN (DD-484) taken at the same time, but none are close-up or high enough res to clearly see the Mk 37 director due to distance from the camera of the photos. However, this image taken from a more forward quarter aspect shows that the "object" is not on the side of the director, but is hanging on the rangefinder.

Also, this in yard view taken at MINY after her summer 1944 overhaul was repaired shows the canvas cover of the rangefinder opening in the Mk 37 director is outsized and looks very baggy.

zDD484x34crop2-23Jun44.jpeg (188.71 KiB) Viewed 4665 times

[cheyenovich]

Thx Rick,

I got what you mean, however, maybe I didn't make it clear. I refer to the irregular shape before the canvas (I've pointed it out in the picture below). I compared the photos of Buchanan's and Lansdowne's bridge in 1943, it seems that their scoreboards were both on the bridge wings... though in 1944 the scoreboard is at where the arrow pointed, the shape was different. So I don't think the irregular shape is a scoreboard.

I know that some sailors created interesting paintings on their ships, while many of them didn't leave official records. As an example, there's one on Wilkes' No.1 mount.

Anyway, Buchanan's case is simply my personal guess... Oh well, would you happen to have any info of the photo below? NHHC said its' taken on July 31, 1943, while Buchanan broke her bow on July 13, during the battle of Kolombangara... I have some doubts about it. If NHHC is right, it's over two weeks when Buchanan got the chance to enter a dry dock for reparations (That would show how hard the Solomon Islands Campaign is) ... And at that time, the irregular shape had appeared on the director.

Pan,

Actually what you think is a "badge/mascot", is actually canvas around the rangefinder of the Mk 37 director.

I have three different views of USS BUCHANAN (DD-484) taken at the same time, but none are close-up or high enough res to clearly see the Mk 37 director due to distance from the camera of the photos. However, this image taken from a more forward quarter aspect shows that the "object" is not on the side of the director, but is hanging on the rangefinder.

The attachment zDD484x25crop-31Jul43.jpeg is no longer available

Also, this in yard view taken at MINY after her summer 1944 overhaul was repaired shows the canvas cover of the rangefinder opening in the Mk 37 director is outsized and looks very baggy.

The attachment zDD484x34crop2-23Jun44.jpeg is no longer available

[Rick E Davis]

Pan,

I still think the "mystery" markings are more likely to be a scoreboard based on the shape and that the scoreboard was "expanded" at MINY during 1944 in that same location. But, who knows. There was no "standard" placement of scoreboards. In 1/700 scale, this "marking(s)" would be no more than a couple of "dots" anyway.

Dates on USN photos, especially taken in the forward areas and filed in the 80-G collection, should always be considered suspect without additional knowledge/research. The three images I have scanned at NARA that appear to have been taken at the same time and place, however they have two different dates ... 31 July 1943 and 24 August 1943. The dates on 80-G photos are more likely the date received by the USN Photo Collection Office or as turned in by the ship to higher command, unless the true date was written on the back of the original print. Checking Deck Logs and/or War Diaries would provide a better idea of when these photos were taken. I didn't note what ship the cameraman was onboard when he took the photo, which I normally provide unless the ship is unknown, which would narrow down the true date even tighter by cross checking when that ship (and USS PRINGLE in the background) was also at Tulagi. Her 13 July 1943 collision damage was repaired locally.

I neglected to comment about small cartoons applied on particularly 5-in mounts, this practice was fairly common, especially late in the war.