Mr. Church wrote:
Thanks dick for sharing all of this research. Very interesting. Looking forward to learning about Anson and Howe's underwater colours in due course too.
Having now gone through the D495s in their Ship's Books, these are my conclusions re the in-service colours of the bottoms of the others of the KGV Class:
DoY: Red until 5/46 or possibly only until 10/45 (two x D495s missing), then grey until 11/46, then red until end.
Anson: Red until 7/45, then grey until 10/1947 then red again until end.
Howe: Red throughout.
It appears that no anti fouling coating was applied by their builders and that these three ships all arrived at Rosyth for their first docking in protective only. Launching/fitting out/delivery photos are therefore no guide to the tone/colour of their in-service anti-fouling coating.
Mr. Church wrote:
Thanks dick for sharing all of this research. Very interesting. Looking forward to learning about Anson and Howe's underwater colours in due course too.
Having now gone through the D495s in their Ship's Books, these are my conclusions re the in-service colours of the bottoms of the others of the KGV Class:
DoY: Red until 5/46 or possibly only until 10/45 (two x D495s missing), then grey until 11/46, then red until end.
Anson: Red until 7/45, then grey until 10/1947 then red again until end.
Howe: Red throughout.
It appears that no anti fouling coating was applied by their builders and that these three ships all arrived at Rosyth for their first docking in protective only. Launching/fitting out/delivery photos are therefore no guide to the tone/colour of their in-service anti-fouling coating.
Many thanks again dick for sharing your research. Much appreciated. Interesting that Duke of York and Anson alternated between red and grey anti-fouling coatings.
As an aside I came across this news article from 1955. Apparently King George V herself was towed from Gareloch to Liverpool to have her hull painted so one would imagine they drydocked her and painted the entire hull including the underwater part?
If I'm not mistaken, Anson and Duke of York docked in Australia/New Zealand after the war before returning to England. Seems reasonable the yards there would have stocks of the older paints, hence the brief stint in grey...
Martocticvs wrote:If I'm not mistaken, Anson and Duke of York docked in Australia/New Zealand after the war before returning to England. Seems reasonable the yards there would have stocks of the older paints, hence the brief stint in grey...
Thanks for sharing your research!
You are correct that it was during Australian dockings that their bottoms were painted with grey anti fouling but it was not because old stock was being used but rather because local Australian anti fouling by Majors was used instead of their normal British-manufactured brands (which presumably were not available). The Majors stuff was pretty much as new as it could be. To give you one example, at Anson's early 1946 docking the Majors used was manufactured 1 March 1946 and applied between 10th and 14th March 1946.
From Reg. Harris in Hong Kong;
.
Thirty seamen from HMS Anson| guarding 'the wireless- station on the 1700ft crest in Victoria Park on Saturday night were sniped at by the Japanese but none was hit.
The party signalled the Anson and the battleship trained searchlights on the hill, which disclosed snipers on the.side of the slopes. The seamen opened up with multiple pompoms.
The seamen are now scouring the slopes for snipers. All Japanese were supposed to have left
Hong Kong for Kowloon on Saturday afternoon but "a complete check has not yet been made�.
Mr. Church wrote:
Thanks dick for sharing all of this research. Very interesting. Looking forward to learning about Anson and Howe's underwater colours in due course too.
Having now gone through the D495s in their Ship's Books, these are my conclusions re the in-service colours of the bottoms of the others of the KGV Class:
DoY: Red until 5/46 or possibly only until 10/45 (two x D495s missing), then grey until 11/46, then red until end.
Anson: Red until 7/45, then grey until 10/1947 then red again until end.
Howe: Red throughout.
It appears that no anti fouling coating was applied by their builders and that these three ships all arrived at Rosyth for their first docking in protective only. Launching/fitting out/delivery photos are therefore no guide to the tone/colour of their in-service anti-fouling coating.
And by extension - PoW was like DoY wasn't it? And same as her, then, was red, probably (as books didnt surivive)?
Curiously all five of the class were built in different shipyards. A testament to British shipbuilding industry that they still had five yards capable of such high end naval work after all the Great Depression era cutbacks.
So who knows as regards Prince of Wales? She was built in Cammell Laird in Birkenhead. Maybe some evidence survives in their records? dick is probably already on the case already. Would be interesting to know for sure does any hard evidence survive?
Hello Mr Church, there are records for Prince of Wales in the Cammell Laird Library in the archives, there are procurement details, machinery specification etc and lists of approved suppliers etc. However I've not seen all files but as far as I know there is no paint detail in the file. Interestingly a lot is about the necessity to employ and use British firms to enable recovery from the depression of the 20's and 30's. Each shipbuilder could build the engines and boilers but items like guns and turrets, armour etc were approved suppliers.
Also there is a build diary at the NMM which details hull build, but again only includes the use of Aranbee on plate joints etc and that the hull was being painted, unfortunately it does not give details of what type of paint. Obviously the ships books would have been thrown overboard or lost on sinking which would have included docking data and underwater paint manufacturers.
Perhaps once data for other large ships built at Cammell Lairds are studied (eg we know now thanks to Richard's research that Ark Royal had grey anti fouling) a pattern may reveal itself but perhaps like many other details about Prince of Wales we may have to best guess from snippets in the archives. For example the King George V ships book reveals that her main 10 ton aircraft cranes were built by Clarke Chapman, her catapult was from Mactaggart Scott, Prince of Wales procurement documents reveal that Admiralty items were to be "interchangeable with other class ships", from that we can assume Prince of Wales had the same air craft handling equipment.
From study of plans etc I know despite this interchangeability there were many differences between Prince of Wales and her sisterships, most I know, some I'm still studying, but even now things still surprise me! I know Prince of Wales main turrets came from Vickers in Barrow, and her armour came from Sheffield, her 5.25's from Scotstoun.
Hi Mr Church, as an update I have gone through the files I have and although there are the thought processes behind the camouflage for standard schemes etc, there is no real detail, other than what Richard has already passed on.
As an aside if you're interested in the day to day running on board HMS Howe look out for the book "Sticky Blue" by Robin Rowe, a Royal Marine bandsman who served aboard her, might be worth a read.
I managed to find a copy of it and am reading through it, cheers again for the tipoff. One interesting point thus far in relation to H.M.S. Howe's wood decks:
The author mentions that they were darkened in the shipyard but thereafter were 'assiduously scrubbed and holystoned by the crew every morning to obtain the nearest that could be to the whiteness of the piping days of peace, in total disregard for camouflage'.
And this during wartime in European waters. I haven't got to the war in the Far East yet. It seems counter-intuitive, but Howe's Captain at the time was Captain Woodhouse who had commanded H.M.S. Ajax during the battle of the River Plate in 1939 so presumably he knew what he was doing. Perhaps they simply figured that camouflage from aircraft was difficult nigh impossible in any case. And radar would have been advancing rapidly by the time Howe commissioned in late 1942.
So clean holystoned wood decks it is when modelling H.M.S. Howe in wartime.
Hi Mr Church, glad you're enjoying it, in a similar vane try Bamboo Years by John G Pike who was a midshipman on Prince of Wales, a good read too.
There are some great oral histories on the IWM website from old sailors who remember certain things distinctly, maybe not the bigger story but interesting little bits and bobs that add to the story.
Hello Mr Church, there are records for Prince of Wales in the Cammell Laird Library in the archives, there are procurement details, machinery specification etc and lists of approved suppliers etc. However I've not seen all files but as far as I know there is no paint detail in the file. Interestingly a lot is about the necessity to employ and use British firms to enable recovery from the depression of the 20's and 30's. Each shipbuilder could build the engines and boilers but items like guns and turrets, armour etc were approved suppliers.
Also there is a build diary at the NMM which details hull build, but again only includes the use of Aranbee on plate joints etc and that the hull was being painted, unfortunately it does not give details of what type of paint. Obviously the ships books would have been thrown overboard or lost on sinking which would have included docking data and underwater paint manufacturers.
Perhaps once data for other large ships built at Cammell Lairds are studied (eg we know now thanks to Richard's research that Ark Royal had grey anti fouling) a pattern may reveal itself but perhaps like many other details about Prince of Wales we may have to best guess from snippets in the archives. For example the King George V ships book reveals that her main 10 ton aircraft cranes were built by Clarke Chapman, her catapult was from Mactaggart Scott, Prince of Wales procurement documents reveal that Admiralty items were to be "interchangeable with other class ships", from that we can assume Prince of Wales had the same air craft handling equipment.
From study of plans etc I know despite this interchangeability there were many differences between Prince of Wales and her sisterships, most I know, some I'm still studying, but even now things still surprise me! I know Prince of Wales main turrets came from Vickers in Barrow, and her armour came from Sheffield, her 5.25's from Scotstoun.
Hope that helps
Best wishes
Cag
Regarding anti-fouling paints of RN ships. I am currently reading "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke who was a Prince of Wales veteran and survivor of the sinking. His books starts prior to him joining the Prince of Wales with his time serving on the Nelson and some destroyers before being posted to Prince of Wales.
That said in his book his description of Ark Royal is "she looked massive and rather ugly" when he first saw the ship and he later describes seeing the ship pitching in heavy seas where the hull can be seen which he described as a brown colour. He also describes incidents at dry dock in Rosyth where the Prince of Wales had a hole cut in its bilge keel to remove a 15 inch shell that had not exploded. I am pretty sure at this points the colour red was mentioned but another issue is that the ship also entered dry dock in Singapore to have its hull scraped and repainted. It was definitely red at the time of sinking as he makes an emphasis of this in his book how the fact that the ship had its anti-fouling hull scraped and painted was of benefit to the survivors during the escape as they did not have to slide down a fouled hull that would have caused injury. In fact the destroyer that came alongside got snared on the battleships bilge keel as it rolled over and they tried to reverse out of there.
I am at the part of his book where he has just escaped Singapore and is on the run. I know that his letters are published at the end of the book and will keep updated as I read futher.
Regarding anti-fouling paints of RN ships. I am currently reading "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke who was a Prince of Wales veteran and survivor of the sinking. His books starts prior to him joining the Prince of Wales with his time serving on the Nelson and some destroyers before being posted to Prince of Wales.
That said in his book his description of Ark Royal is "she looked massive and rather ugly" when he first saw the ship and he later describes seeing the ship pitching in heavy seas where the hull can be seen which he described as a brown colour. He also describes incidents at dry dock in Rosyth where the Prince of Wales had a hole cut in its bilge keel to remove a 15 inch shell that had not exploded. I am pretty sure at this points the colour red was mentioned but another issue is that the ship also entered dry dock in Singapore to have its hull scraped and repainted. It was definitely red at the time of sinking as he makes an emphasis of this in his book how the fact that the ship had its anti-fouling hull scraped and painted was of benefit to the survivors during the escape as they did not have to slide down a fouled hull that would have caused injury. In fact the destroyer that came alongside got snared on the battleships bilge keel as it rolled over and they tried to reverse out of there.
I am at the part of his book where he has just escaped Singapore and is on the run. I know that his letters are published at the end of the book and will keep updated as I read futher.
I have responded re Ark Royal on her CASF thread.
Re PoW, I cannot immediately find the mention of red at the time of the removal of the 15� shell � perhaps you could provide the page number?
Re the bottom colour at the time of her sinking I can find on page 108 �� the grey paint on her hull changed to brown as the dividing line of her boot-topping rose out of the water�.� and on page 109, the ship having rolled completely over, "....a 700-foot waterlogged cylinder of brown.."
Where did you find mention of red at the time of her sinking?
Regarding anti-fouling paints of RN ships. I am currently reading "Alarm Starboard" by Geoffrey Brooke who was a Prince of Wales veteran and survivor of the sinking. His books starts prior to him joining the Prince of Wales with his time serving on the Nelson and some destroyers before being posted to Prince of Wales.
That said in his book his description of Ark Royal is "she looked massive and rather ugly" when he first saw the ship and he later describes seeing the ship pitching in heavy seas where the hull can be seen which he described as a brown colour. He also describes incidents at dry dock in Rosyth where the Prince of Wales had a hole cut in its bilge keel to remove a 15 inch shell that had not exploded. I am pretty sure at this points the colour red was mentioned but another issue is that the ship also entered dry dock in Singapore to have its hull scraped and repainted. It was definitely red at the time of sinking as he makes an emphasis of this in his book how the fact that the ship had its anti-fouling hull scraped and painted was of benefit to the survivors during the escape as they did not have to slide down a fouled hull that would have caused injury. In fact the destroyer that came alongside got snared on the battleships bilge keel as it rolled over and they tried to reverse out of there.
I am at the part of his book where he has just escaped Singapore and is on the run. I know that his letters are published at the end of the book and will keep updated as I read futher.
I have responded re Ark Royal on her CASF thread.
Re PoW, I cannot immediately find the mention of red at the time of the removal of the 15� shell � perhaps you could provide the page number?
Re the bottom colour at the time of her sinking I can find on page 108 �� the grey paint on her hull changed to brown as the dividing line of her boot-topping rose out of the water�.� and on page 109, the ship having rolled completely over, "....a 700-foot waterlogged cylinder of brown.."
Where did you find mention of red at the time of her sinking?
I am interpreting the description of "brown" to be an antifouling red. He was midships when the ship rolled and the side he saw would have been the home fleet grey part of the camouflage as he stated dividing line and boot-topping.
To be honest it will all depend on how the author interpreted or saw his impression of "brown" and if he saw it more brown than red.
Hi Sutho, Richard and Martocticvs, as I say I've found nothing yet as to the colour of the hull on Prince of Wales, there is one more file to see, from her damage control officer and one regarding a magnetic survey of her hull.
I'm not holding out much hope of getting anything new but will let you know if I do, Richard I know is on the ball for anti fouling colours so maybe a shipyard trend may reveal itself, thinking about it I guess the brown could well have been the mass of fuel oil spewing from her ruptured tanks, but of course hull red was more of a brown so who knows!
Crew reports also say Repulse had a brown hull, I'm not sure if an early Repulse ships book exists still but again the relevant ships book is long gone.
Its great to see people still hunting for answers, but maybe I'm a cynic as I'm afraid that long ago I had to accept that certain details of these ships were lost long ago and only a lucky snippet of info in unrelated files will be found.
Not long ago I looked in the file for Rodney's 273 RDF report and found a host of reports from Prince of Wales! It included a letter from the radar branch stating that due to its larger aerial and lantern this set was to be designated Type 273 and not 271 as that set designation was for fitments to smaller ships.
Screenshot re-posted here for ease of viewing and discussion, copyright rests with original owners BAE Systems / Wirral archives:
That is the first photo I've seen to clearly show an 'oil canning' effect on the hull of a King George V Class Battleship. Even if it can't really be 'oil canning' as she has not yet been to sea. The glossy style paint applied for the launch likely helps highlight it. It seems negligibly noticeable otherwise. Probably scarcely worth bothering with on a model, unless it is very large scale, as the effect seems much less pronounced than on other warship classes.
The King George V Classes had such short service careers perhaps they didn't have time to get too badly 'oil-canned'? Though the Russia Convoys in rough northern waters must have taken a toll on the hull plating.
"Oil canning" is where lighter weight plates are distorted between supports, especially by the seas' action. What you can see on the POW is the ridges formed by overlapping plates.
pgollin wrote:.That is not "oil caning" as such."Oil canning" is where lighter weight plates are distorted between supports, especially by the seas' action. What you can see on the POW is the ridges formed by overlapping plates..
I was about to ask a / that question, as I thought 'oil canning' referred to as you described Phil, and couldn't / wouldn't expect to see that in the photo (given she had never been to sea). I wonder then if Mr Church is referring to / describing something else?
"We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it." Capt. Tennant, HMS Repulse. 8 December 1941
"A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging." Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
