ARL 12 USS Poseidon

[Fliger747]

Undoubtedly if the block was used to pull the Derrick outboard one would use a messenger at any rate to mate the two objects, hoist and hoistee. This would save wear and tear on the Bosun's boondockers.

For modeling purposes the derrick will be secured for sea. Though the winch can secure the A frame in the upright position, I wouldn't be surprised if the accessory bracing/platform had a method utilizing pins or bolts to secure the frame for sea. Having this come loose at sea could be problematic.

I was finally able to shoot the hull base color yesterday, though the airbrush was having fits, I had to remove the air valve and soak it in Lacquer thinner. A bit like when the Farmer's mule died "He never done that before".... So, back to those questions that seem to plague the modeler of the ancillary Navy, especially the Alligator Variant, was there boot topping, hull red and of course these items not shown on the BOGP. I remember seeing Poseidon tied up on Lake Union (Seattle) in the mid 60's and she had the medium large shadowed hull designators, but my wartime photos aren't showing anything identifiable. Not like the Huge come and get me 8-10' high numbering the Amphibious types had.

Cheers: Tom

PS, as to the double winch, a photo of the back appeared to have single large motor with dual controls. The APA double winches appeared to have dual motors.

[Fliger747]

Under the "Wah hail" clause of the model builders bible, additional information always comes to life afterwards and not before. Using photos from Sphinx I crafted two, different single spool winches for the forward starboard king post. However this photo , taken from the entrance to the starboard companionway shows a double spool winch. What I am wondering is how similar this is to the Port winch? Suggesting the port winch perhaps needs some modification?

Like I said, "Wah Hail".... Oh well these little gentlemen are fun to design.

Tom

[DrPR]

Does the double spool winch have one motor or two?

In your 3 November post picture it looks like there is a second tackle coming inboard from the top of the A Frame, and it is connected to a "V" harness. I wonder if that is how they secured the A Frame inboard for sea? And what winch is used to pull this tackle?

Also, there is another line (second from the top) coming from the A Frame to a spot on the deck inboard and aft of the double spool winch. This could be the stay that actually secures the A Frame inboard.

This is a very interesting discussion. This rig is quite different from the "ordinary" booms and cranes on combatants and supply ships.

Phil

PS: Maybe I find it so interesting because I am in the process of building a model of an early 19th century topsail schooner - revenue cutter - and there is almost no good information about how those ships were rigged, especially where the rigging was belayed "on deck"! I have been working on this for months and just about have it figured out (I think).

[Fliger747]

Phil:

I haven't got it all worked out as yet, but in essence there are two cable winches, the starboard winch is used for hoisting and feeds through the lifting block sheaths. The winch approximately on centerline is used to position the A Frame. The V shaped harness apparently keeps the block from swinging around and allows tension on the top of the frame from the outboard winch, helping secure it. There are some photos on Navsource of a (French) ARL Hoisting an LSM, the derrick appears to be at about a 45 deg angle when hoisting. Two cables are attached at the top of the Frame and run across the ship to padeyes abeam the outboard winch and become taut and supports the frame at it's extended position, not relying on the mid winch to support the frame while lifting. Being in French Indochina no barge appeared available and a couple of sailors in a sampan were inspecting the bottom of the LSM.

Photos showing UNREP utilize the forward starboard boom to hoist the hoses as a tanker would. As these ships with their economical diesel engines had a 24,000 mile range, they probably had fuel to share with the small boys or other LST's as needed.

Several things I haven't discovered yet, where the port and starboard accommodation ladders were stored (under the Whelan davits?) and the wartime numbering scheme. Sometime during the time at Okinawa the ship was painted out of the green camo scheme into grays. In neither scheme can I discern any hull numbering, even when returned to San Diego. Perhaps the small designators are in black? I have a photo of a raft of Fletchers just returned (at San Diego) with the small numbering and one does have the black numbering. The Amphib types had huge numbers so the boats could easily find their way back to the right ship amongst a huge and confusing invasion fleet. Having low vis numbers would keep boats from heading their way by mistake. After heading to Portland, and later the large postwar numbering was used.

Tom

[Fliger747]

Rolling and pitching on the edge of a Pacific Typhoon. Here you can see the cables leading toward the A frame, the starboard winch runs the lifting block. The centerline winch runs through several blocks to raise and lower the A frame. The white bundle just forward of the winches is the battened down 20' sailing sloop "Vee Jay".

Hard day on the bow 40 mm! Taken from the port bridge wing showing the A Frame and cables running to the deck winches. There is a long light gray "pole" attached to the A frame, protruding across the deck. The French ARL hoisting the LSM appeared to have this attached when the frame is lowered. Its purpose? Not sure.

[Fliger747]

Muster of Ship's company upon return Stateside after the war, probably an inspection from Rear Admiral Danial V Gallery. Love these high resolution 8x10 glossies so beloved of the analogue navy.

[DrPR]

I noticed the "pole" in an earlier photo. It has a flat plate with holes at the inboard end. This is an attachment plate - to be bolted to something, but what?

My guess is that it is a structural member that is attached to the A Frame when it is swung outboard and to the deck on the other end. This would provide a rigid support to hold the A Frame in position, not depending upon cables. This would free the winches for other duty.

Phil

[Fliger747]

Phil:

I will have to look at the photo of the French ARL again with the derrick lifting an LSM. The pole is attached but must be hinged at the frame end as it does not fully scribe the arc of the frame. The two fixed cables attached to the top of the frame become taut at the fully extended position and take the strain off the winches. The only function of these winches is to service the frame position and lifting, however the catheads (one each) could be used separately. For instance a line could be snaked across the deck to a pulley and attached via a shackle to use the pole to move the frame over center.

Modeling this item becomes more mysterious!

Cheers: Tom

[raggs]

Tom, I trust you've already scoured the AGP & ARB pics on Navsource looking for this info on the A frame release.

Perhaps your "pole" is actually a "ram" to bring the A frame outboard/over center, for lifting, and helping to lock in place while stowed.
Interesting on how they really did that. I would think there would be one forward also.
Lots of lessons learned in a short time for this second batch of Amphibs, and tons of improvements between ARL 1 to ARL 12 as launched.

I wonder if ARLs kept their ballasting ability, i.e. launching an LCT as an LST would.
However I would think that is too much work and time to make a crane to flop over center.

She looks great.

Best,

Paul

[Fliger747]

Paul:

To celebrate the goings on in Glazz-Go we will dub it a "Miss Tree". Dave had a close relative served on the first ARL, which was converted in Sydney and I will presume 1-10 were modeled after. For much of her life she served under the LST number and saw a lot of combat for a repair ship, taking large bomb off of New Guinea and a Kamikaze off the Philippines. Later bestowed with a name and one of the last two ARL numbers.

Off Okinawa Poseidon mostly spent time at Kerama Retto and Hagushi beach (Okinawa) where they made smoke and could see the kamikaze's go over. Trouble with the smoke, obscured the view of the gunners, but the pole masts still stuck through the miasma indicating a ship present!

The Miss Tree pole, would allow an emergency retraction of the derrick by rigging block and tackle and using one of the winch cat heads? Perhaps this system was designed and built by some ship fitter in Sydney, lost to history, converting the first one.

Noel in Malta kindly sent a photo from Navsource from the top of the mast on ARL 19.

Notice the cables rigged to take the tension on the frame when lowered, the forward booms in use and the boat boom rigged Starboard.

Yes the other LST derived Aux's have some relevant info as well!

Thanks! Tom

Note the figure at the bottom wearing shorts and boat shoes with his feet propped up on the flying bridge bulwark!

[BB62vet]

Tom,
That's one of the best photos of deck gear on ARL's I've seen yet. The 2 retaining cables are clearly visible and as well the winch arrangements showing which one did what. The one remaining question (I guess) is how did the A Frame get pushed into operational position?

Not to steal the thread or change subjects, but I found a very interesting photo of a similar (and larger) setup on one of the T-3 tankers:

AO-72 USS NIOBRARA - Quite an elaborate setup to portside!

Hank

[Fliger747]

Hank:

That AO photo really shows the deck camber well! I think the large crane harkens back to the days of sail "Away All Boarders"!

Noel of Malta came up with a really excellent AGP Photo (French Vessel in Viet Nam?) that shows the infamous "Pole". I think that the plate on the end as identified by Phil might be a pulley sheave.

In addition, lacking a barge, the ship is using a working stage, pulled clear of the water to allow work on the PT like boat. Those old Chief's of long service are endlessly capable in coming up with can do solutions.

Tom

[BB62vet]

Tom,

Yes, I would also add that perhaps a lot of the parts necessary to do specific tasks were "built to order" as needed - as in this case a frame for hoisting the camel out of the water - something I doubt the ARL had already constructed and gathering dust.

Hank

[Fliger747]

Hank:

Looking at my dad mustered with his repair division I was impressed by the line of Chiefs, all with the stripes of long pre war service, what they used to call "lifers". I don't think the Brandon group realizes that to accomplish things you need people with experience, good experience. Dad grew up in a small rural farming community, around those sorts of people, no nonsense, competent and respected them. Respect your men and listen to them and you can get a lot done.

In the heyday of Boeing the CEO, a talented Aeronautical Engineer, would hop in his old Datsun pickup at the Boeing Field offices and drive up to Everett and talk to the guys on the shop floor, working on the first 747, then go bang his shoe on a few desks! It's one of the finest airplanes ever built. Since they moved to Chicago and work through armies of bean counters, not so much.

The depression kids were tough and resourceful by necessity. That the US was heavily mechanized and those kids knew how to operate machinery and fix stuff, improvise, was a great advantage.

When I look at those photos, any photos really, of a WWII Naval Vessel the absolute clutter of stuff everywhere impresses one. This was the fleet that came to stay and you never knew what might be useful at the end of a very long thin line.

Printing some O1 level rails today, including the infamous pole and box.

Tom

[raggs]

Tom,

"Miss Tree" reminds me of some sexy broad painted on the splinter shield for the forward 40mm mount.

Much like my G-Pa's Liberty or the nose of a bomber.

Sorry if I overthink & digress...

Paul

[BB62vet]

Tom,

Yes, it is (well, WAS) the CPO who kept the ship operating on an even keel, we had many such on the 2 main ships I served in during Vietnam. Those particular chiefs all came into the Navy during WWII or thereabouts, had little formal education outside Navy service schools, but could basically put together anything and everything needed to meet a deadline or target, and didn't worry about the whims & fancies of the politics or brass - they got the job done and if it took a kick in the ass (literally) or 4 letter words to achieve that - then so it was. Your comment re. the busy-ness of a ship and clutter, etc. - points out how devoid our today's naval warship is of anything that even looks like a weapon or something that means business. Back in the 60's we had supply depts. that pretty well kept on board spares for A-Z. I have my doubts that the Navy today is even capable of maintaining sufficient spares to keep a vessel operational until it can get to port. Maybe I'm wrong, don't know.

Will be interested in seeing how you finalize the A-Frame and components.

Hank

[Fliger747]

Hey, what you need is in the "supply chain" for next day delivery (a day after you need it). I'll be interested to see what I come up with as well!

Tom

[DrPR]

In Noel's photo it looks to me as if the "pole" is secured on the left end to a fitting on the deck, and the right end is fastened to the A Frame (right side as seen looking inboard). This reinforces my idea that it is a structural member to hold the A Frame in position over the side.

Thinking about what Hank said, it was common when I was in the Navy for a ship to make changes as necessary to improve operations. This might be something as simple as a bosun asking the engineers to add another cleat in a convenient location, to adding an extension to a deck house to increase interior working space. One curious example was on the USS Oklahoma City CLG-5. A pair of 10" destroyer type bitts (the cruiser bitts were 14") were added forward port and starboard right at the end of the wooden deck. It was the only Cleveland class ship to have these two extra bitts.

Phil

[BB62vet]

It's too bad Noel's photo is cut off and doesn't show the upper end of the A Frame & assoc. block & tackle, etc. However, Tom's initial photo of the overhead shot showing the A Frame & deck, etc. - the "pole" appears to be part of a hydraulic ram system consisting of two boxes on the left (covered w/canvas?) and a central bearing unit - although, if this were the case - wouldn't it be mounted higher from the deck to give a better position of leverage on the A Frame? This IS a most perplexing question that may only be answered when NARA finally opens it's doors once again to the taxpayers who own it!

Dr. PR - I think that's sort of what you call a "ShipAlt" - shipboard alteration duly noted/documented and sent back to BuShips for recording, etc.

Supply Chain seems to work well providing the items ordered somehow involve Charlie Chan and his motley trucking crew!!!

Hank

[Fliger747]

The large canvass covered items are to my guess either air compressors or welding units. Some ships do not have these present but retain the pole. I haven't seen them uncovered as yet. The French ship with the boom extended does not seem to have these (covered) items on deck. My guess, a stabilizer bar, the box containing rollers and possibly a securing device.

"Yes-tiddy" I added some printed rail on the O1 deck and also stanchions for some sprue rail. The short sections of rail with bends prints well and is very serviceable. The long straight sections do not. I printed overnight (but have not yet retrieved), some more of the cross deck I beam to complete the area around the A frame. The configuration there is not fully clear as yet.

Today, maybe make up some sprue for rail and see if I can apply it.

Tom