Calling all Iowa-class (BB-61) fans

[Jennings]

Okay, sooo... what color was this 5" mount painted? Clearly not the same light gray as the rest of the superstructure.

[SeanF]

No only on the 5" turret but also on the aft superstructure just past turret 3 - with a plain as day horizontal demarcation between 5H and 5L! (In-line with the top edge of #3 turret's gun tub) Iowa had a 3-tone scheme in late '44! Look back at Rick's first and second photos regarding turret 2: I think they pained over the original panel of 5N with 5L. Looks like there's a lot more to this than just blocking off those feathered edges. (And I'd say this locks in the original scheme's base color as being 5H)

Rick, fantastic photos, thanks for sharing!

- Sean F.

[Rick E Davis]

I sure don't know for sure, but there could be bright sun angle reflecting off the paint at certain angles and mild shadows at play.

But, you guys can have fun with that (why I only paint models in Ms 21 and Ms 22, a lot less complicated )

[SeanF]

I added blue circles around the spot I mentioned earlier - and found a second one, as well. The bulkhead behind the turret ear looks much lighter, but we get into the issues of angles of light, possible clouds altering the intensity of sunlight, etc. But in both of the circled locations the color change occurs on the same smooth metal surface with no knuckles, conduits, weld lines, etc. that could be causing a cast shadow or optical illusion.

Iowa - Paint Demarcations.jpg (76.08 KiB) Viewed 2751 times

My read is 5H and 5L, but could also be 5H and 5P, or even 5L and 5P. But I'm pretty sure the darker of the two grays is not 5O - too much contrast with the 5N, and not enough contrast with the lighter gray.

- Sean F.

[Strategos Augustus]

Repainting worn patches with paint shade that happens to be on hand/close enough?

[Jennings]

...

[Tracy White]

There are about 100 boxes relating to ship paint at NARA II in College Park I have identified but have not been able to get to or through.

One box can take a couple of hours depending on what one finds.

I would love the opportunity to boil it down.

[MartinJQuinn]

If you look at Rick's 80G-256593 photo, it looks like turret #2 is 5L and 5H as well. Also looks like there may be some 5L on the port side superstructure.

[Mr. Church]

If you look at Rick's 80G-256593 photo, it looks like turret #2 is 5L and 5H as well.

I wonder is it the blue stripe on Turret No. 2 freshly overpainted with grey? The outline almost exactly corresponds to the blue stripe as seen here:

Turret 2 blue.jpg (73.99 KiB) Viewed 3781 times

It seems there was quite a bit of chopping and changing with this particular camouflage scheme.

[Mr. Church]

On the port side alone there are three distinct versions of the scheme that I can see. The starboard side is more difficult to find photos of.

Re-posted from this website as mentioned earlier for ease of viewing and discussion, copyright rests with original owner:
http://www.usndazzle.com/ship.php?id=126

First one is the original version with feathered edges, January 1944:

Second is the version with angular edges, the feathering having been removed, April 1944:

And the final version is that with angular edges but with the much bigger blue panel between the funnels on both the hull and the superstructure, August 1944:

[James M]

Here is my post of the Iowa's camouflage during WWII.
If anyone can add to it, it would help modelers with this question

viewtopic.php?f=74&t=158893

James

[bigjimslade]

Okay, sooo... what color was this 5" mount painted? Clearly not the same light gray as the rest of the superstructure.

I think that is from the angle sunlight is being reflected. Notice the color is close to that of the shields on the 20mm mounts.

[SeanF]

Okay, sooo... what color was this 5" mount painted? Clearly not the same light gray as the rest of the superstructure.

I think that is from the angle sunlight is being reflected. Notice the color is close to that of the shields on the 20mm mounts.

I think it's the same color as the lower part of the aft superstructure and funnel 1; the angled face is just catching more sun. I'd bet on 5L.

- Sean F.

[MartinJQuinn]

Here is my post of the Iowa's camouflage during WWII.
If anyone can add to it, it would help modelers with this question

viewtopic.php?f=74&t=158893

James

I see I promised to merge that thread into this thread (and forgot) a few years back. I finally did so today.

[Mr. Church]

It should be borne in mind too that like any ship in regular service, Iowa's crew would have been in a perpetual state of repainting her. It's a job that is never 'done'. There is always some spot or some area that needs painting. And she was pretty active in 1944 when she wore the camouflage scheme.

There is a video documentary about USS Missouri during Desert Storm in 1991. 'A Call to Crisis' I think it was called, should be on Youtube somewhere? Things were hectic during the opening phase of the war but once they calmed down a bit the crew were sent out doing regular painting and maintenance again. The Second World War was likely similar in that regard. No painting during busy operational periods but once things calmed down, then it was back to maintenance and painting.

Looking closely at the photo posted above again, the blue on Turret No. 3's barrels looks much more vibrant than the blue on the turret face or side. Different sun angles between the round barrels and the angular turret face and vertical turret sides may be a contributory factor? But possibly the barrels were repainted more recently than the turret and hence appear different despite being officially the same colour?

[SeanF]

It should be borne in mind too that like any ship in regular service, Iowa's crew would have been in a perpetual state of repainting her. It's a job that is never 'done'. There is always some spot or some area that needs painting. And she was pretty active in 1944 when she wore the camouflage scheme.

There is a video documentary about USS Missouri during Desert Storm in 1991. 'A Call to Crisis' I think it was called, should be on Youtube somewhere? Things were hectic during the opening phase of the war but once they calmed down a bit the crew were sent out doing regular painting and maintenance again. The Second World War was likely similar in that regard. No painting during busy operational periods but once things calmed down, then it was back to maintenance and painting.

Looking closely at the photo posted above again, the blue on Turret No. 3's barrels looks much more vibrant than the blue on the turret face or side. Different sun angles between the round barrels and the angular turret face and vertical turret sides may be a contributory factor? But possibly the barrels were repainted more recently than the turret and hence appear different despite being officially the same colour?

Turret 3 barrels.jpg

Certainly a possibility; no argument there! I just feel that the couple of demarcation lines I pointed out earlier are just much too stark (and consistent with each other) to be explained by touch-up work. Sure, the gun barrels might be in a fresh coat of 5N compared with the turret (again, if it isn't actually an issue of lighting); but the split between those grays is not a fresh vs. old paint split. That's two different colors.
The only way I could see that "paint-on-hand" could explain that is if Iowa picked up a pre-mixed batch of two colors from a depot, who accidentally gave them 5L instead of 5H, but got the 5N right. Otherwise, if you have enough tinting paste to mix a batch of 5N, then you almost certainly have enough to mix 5H instead of 5L (unless you burned through it all to mix the 5N I suppose...). I'm pretty sure they chose to mix 5L instead. Kind-of a mid-year, in-the-field decision to switch from Measure 31 colors to Measure 32?

- Sean F.

[Mr. Church]

I fully agree with you that this section does look significantly different as has been pointed out above.

The 5L light grey being very light to start with, I wonder did funnel soot or cordite smoke from heavy main gun bombardments tend to darken it over time? Which might explain it looking so different?

Or perhaps it was a mixing or paint consignment labelling error as you say? Who knows?!

It would be great to see more photos of her and try and pinpoint additional areas of differences within the grey.

[Rick E Davis]

So far you guys are missing a big hint that USS IOWA was being painted ... maybe pattern revised ... while at anchor here.

In the series of images (80-GK-1613, 1614, and 1615) taken during the boxing match on 27 May 1944, note that the aft fire control tower is painted with the starboard half painted 5-N and the portside painted 5-H. The same way it was during January 1944 images.



Another image (cropped) taken during the boxing match, 80-GK-1614. A little sharper than 80-GK-1613.



However, in the image (80-GK-14182) taken during church services, note that the same tower has been painted 5-N on both sides.



The envelops at NARA that the original transparencies are in have dates that almost always are NOT accurate. The dates likely reflect when they arrived at the USN Photo Center (NPC). Ships during WWII didn't have the ability to process color transparencies and the film had to be sent to where it could be. I don't know if they could process at Pearl Harbor by 1944, or if the film had to go stateside. I was able to date the three "boxing match" images via the ships involved and the match itself, specifically the destroyer alongside the portside and the oiler on her starboard side. So the date of 27 May 1944 is a pretty solid point as to what the tower looked like at that point.

I couldn't date the church services image, because of a lack of clues, since church services were a common occurrence. It looked like USS IOWA was at anchor. I had and still wonder if the church services photo was taken by the same photographer shortly AFTER the boxing match. The original transparency envelope has a date of "about June 1944", which seemed to make that a possibility. 27 May 1944 was a Saturday, so quite possibly the church services photo was taken on Sunday 28 May 1944.

Back to the Church Services image (80-GK-14182). Note several things that point to painting is or was in the process of being done. Note the sailor under the middle 16-in gun of turret #3, he looks like he is painting that barrel. The paint on the gun barrels and the turret itself appear much fresher than many other areas. Also, look at the Main Gun Fire Control Director, the front of the director turned towards starboard looks like it hasn't all been repainted with areas of 5-H still visible. Further, there is another sailor working on the aft Mk 37 director ... painting? The aft stack appears to be faded and exhibits areas that had been touched up in the past. Compare to the searchlight platform in fresh new paint. Also, as had been pointed out, the areas of lighter paint is noticeably so compared to the 5-H paint next to them. But, note that in a couple of those places (forward stack) the demarcation line if jagged, not a sharp line.

The lighter paint could be fresh paint not yet fully dried or a "barrier" coat before 5-H or 5-N is applied.

The thing about camo paint during WWII, a photo taken one day can show one pattern/scheme and a photo taken a few days later can show something completely different. For whatever reason, the dazzle pattern on USS IOWA was altered and apparently several times during 1944.

[Fliger747]

Of curiosity, mostly unrelated to the paint colors, are all the Bofors barrels entirely black?

Tom

[Rick E Davis]

Black or "Gunmetal". Since the barrels would get hot enough to burn off paint (happened on 5-in guns as well, which were painted), a treatment (non-paint) was applied to the 20-mm and 40-mm guns.