Calling all WW2 IJN sub fans

[Quincy]

Hi Peter:

The upper sub in picture#1 is all gray with black stained decks, waterline is hull red.
Lower sub is all black, including decks. White identification markings as seen on deck.


Second picture is as follows.
I-19 All gray with black painted upper hangar and conning tower.

1-29 All black conning tower and hull including decks.

[Gernot]

The first image only has the profound instructions: deck color, lower hull (below waterline) color, upper hull (above waterline) color.

The second image describes the colors as "...like other submarines, the upper color was "mouse [gray] color", the underside was "red brown color", and the deck "wood color", with the advice that to make them more difficult to see from the air a darker gray was used, and a darker than wood color might be better for models, like "dark brown". A mix is then suggested made up of 25% brown, 15% black, 25% white, and 35% yellow (although I cannot make out that character easily).

I can't say this is helpful to any degree!

[reigels]

Do we know what years the schemes represent? More generally, can anyone speak to when INJ submarines were painted black, and whether they carried the flag painted on the side of the sail during the war, or only before (or only during?).

Thanks.

[Quincy]

The black scheme was early to mid war period. The I-29 had this scheme with the exception of no painted flag on its conning tower when it went to France in 1943.

The flags on the conning tower were either painted on, or lashed to them. The I-176 was the only sub that I can think of that had 3 flags painted on it. One in the front, and one on either side of its conning tower. She wore an all black scheme.



Bob Pink.

[Quincy]

Here are some quotes from Painting Systems of the IJN 1904-1945 by Linton Wells.

Common Modifications to the Basic Gray-

"Submarine colors were specified first in 1907 as gray hulls with white superstructures. In 1916 they were changed to all white. After 1920, submarines were painted the same gray as warships, although the wooden decks found on many I and RO boats sometimes were left in their natural colors. Even if the decks were gray, however, submerged boats were very visible from the air, so bridge canopies and upper decks were being painted "BLACK" even before the Pacific War. As the war continued, the black was extended to the sides as well, down to a point where the tangent to the hull was 30 degrees of the vertical. Some Japanese submarines retained their gray sides throughout the war, however."


Bob Pink.

[Peter Rathgeb]

Thank you, Gentlemen.

I had hoped that the text over or near the second picture would give any indications to the time frame in which e.g. the black tops of the conning tower and the hangar would have been applied.

I only know that starting from the second half of 1942 (after the I-8 was mistakenly bombed by a Japanese G4M aircraft off Kwajalein in May, 1942) the white double stripes were introduced for ID purposes.

I am presently building a 1/350 kit of the I-19 and want to portray it in the time it sank CV-7 USS Wasp and DD-415 USS O'Brien and damaged BB-55 USS North Carolina, i.e. September, 1942.

Thanks again, and cheers,
Peter

[Quincy]

Hi Peter,

On the cover of Model Art #34 IJN Sub issue pt.1 there is a painting of I-19 with an all gray hull, dark colored deck, and conning tower, and top of hangar painted black. White recognition stripes are also added. In background is the torpedoed Wasp.

The only innaccuracy of the painting is that she is sailing on the surface with Glen floatplane and crane deployed.




Bob Pink.

[Dan K]

I meant to post the following when Tracy made his inquiry about I-19 before the holidays:

The illustrator of the Gran Prix Shuppan and Tamiya Random Detail volumes (I think his name was Mori Tsunide - I've probably butchered it) was extremely knowledgeable about the IJN and ship details, perhaps more so than any other illustrator or author. He illustrated details that, to this day, still seem to escape most eyes. For example, his GPS CV volume p.57 clearly shows the that Shokaku island topped Type 94 HA director was relocated to the post side, not deleted as virtually everone else thought.

As the Random Detail books illustrate, he clearly was preparing work on both a BB and sub volumes before he passed away in 1994. In vol # 1, p.8 are illustrations pertaining to the Type B1/I--15 class: a large illustration of the I-15 conning tower along with 4 b&w shaded illustrations of 4 sister boats - #s 15, 19, 27, & 29. I-19 is noted as of July 1942 with a grey conning tower with black around the top of the conning tower surrounding the scope bases and on the top surface of the dorsal portion of the tower extending forward. I -27 is similar but with more a regular outline, I-29 is all black for 1943. Just don't have time to scan and post right now.

IMHO, he probably has the details correct. FWIW.

[Peter Rathgeb]

Thank you, Gentlemen.

@ Quincy: I think I have seen this painting. I also believe the illustrator is mostly correct, the white ID stripes should be there, and I have seen the irregularly outlined black colour on top of the hangar extension on a photograph of I-19 (alas undated). And yes, the deployed Glen floatplane and crane in sight of the torpedoed Wasp is somewhat ridiculous. In reality, I think I-19 had better things to do after the torpedo salvo, like escaping the destroyers.

@ Dan: What a pity that Mori Tsunide has not been able to finish his work on submarines. I would be strongly interested in scans of the illustrations you mentionned, whenever you have the time to make them. Thanks in advance!

I really love Japanese submarines - the variety in types, purposes, camouflage etc. I really hope that this new trend of 1/350 IJN submarine kits will continue.

Cheers,
Peter

[Peter Rathgeb]

Another quick question:

@ Dan: What exactly do you mean by "surrounding the scope bases"? Do you mean that the area just around the scope bases was still grey and the rest of the conning tower top was black?

Thanks again and cheers,
Peter

[Dan K]

Have a look

[Dan K]

plus

[Tracy White]

Is there a date range for that I-19 guide?

Also, would it be safe to presume the gray used was Yokosuka?

[Peter Rathgeb]

@ Dan: Thanks a lot - this is VERY helpful!

@ Tracy: I think Yokosuka grey is a good bet. Zenji Orita writes in "I-Boat Captain" that prior to the Pearl Harbour raid, the hulls of all submarines involved (Orita was then Officer on I-15) were to be painted black. After PH, Yokosuka was the only place where I-19 was overhauled, and I suppose the repainting was done when she was there in drydock in March and April, 1942.

@ all: I am presently building my I-19 kit depicting her in late 1942, and I still hesitate to paint the white air ID stripes. As we have seen, the top of the conning tower and of the hangar were painted black, the deck - as seen on a photo - was a very dark colour, supposedly black stain (?) on natural wood, all was done to camouflage her. And those white stripes would only have ruined the camouflage effects. So: did all 1st class submarines receive those stripes starting from the second half of 1942, or only most of them, or just a few? Anybody know for sure if I-19 had them?

Thanks everybody, and cheers,
Peter

[Quincy]

I know that the I-9 had them and probably her sisters. When I model my 1/700 IJN subs I usually have a lot of the decks natural wood color bleed through with semi /moderate black staining. Being submerged for long periods of time I would imagine the staining would wear off pretty quickly.




Bob Pink.

[Tracy White]

@ Tracy: I think Yokosuka grey is a good bet. Zenji Orita writes in "I-Boat Captain" that prior to the Pearl Harbour raid, the hulls of all submarines involved (Orita was then Officer on I-15) were to be painted black. After PH, Yokosuka was the only place where I-19 was overhauled, and I suppose the repainting was done when she was there in drydock in March and April, 1942.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. I-19 was part of the attack on Pearl, so by your first sentence I would believe the hull was repainted before the raid, but the last sentence makes it appear she wasn't painted in time and wouldn't have painted her hull black until after. Does that description of "hull" also mean the sail or would that have been left in the black top / gray sides?

[Peter Rathgeb]

@ Tracy: Sorry if I was not clear. English is not my mother tongue, and sometimes (often? ) it shows. What I meant is that I suppose that I-19 was painted black prior to Pearl Harbour, and then repainted grey in March/April 1942 during it's overhaul in Yokosuka naval yard.

Cheers,
Peter

[Dan K]

I found the photo that the illustration of I-19 is based on. Kind of grainy but taken in port, shows only the conning tower. According to her TROM, this would be Yokosuka in July 1942. This is almost certainly her color scheme as she departed for her famous war patrol off Guadalcanal.

[Peter Rathgeb]

Yes, that's the pic. Thanks for adding a date and place, Dan.
Cheers,
Peter

[Dan K]

For completeness sake, here's the photo. Credit, Maru Ship #31