1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall warship

[Iceman 29]

From this tiny piece of wood, a little gem slowly emerges.

[marijn van gils]

From this tiny piece of wood, a little gem slowly emerges.

+1!

[JIM BAUMANN]

Good evening all,

a quick update-- images are self explanatory- I hope...
Gratings have been made using any suitable sized piece of PE that I could find
( laboriously ) that matched the deck plan

and... the first coat of paint has been applied-- as a guide coat only
and minor imperfections have been been filled with thick paint ( the bright patches )
then final clean up edges of gunports

another light sanding--and repeat... and repeat...

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Pieter, that's a good point. I had been thinking of the more or less straight sides of the ship, but indeed around the bow, one would certainly need to mill perpendicular to the sides and not to the middle line.

Jim, thermal expansion certainly is an issue when combining different materials and the effect is more pronounced the longer the parts are. Wood (or at least certain species) has the additional issue of swelling/shrinking with changing humidity, as many shipmodellers only too well know.

In real terms considering an expansion coefficient of 0.075 mm / m / K for acrylic glass, this means that your hull of 0.12 m length would elongate by 0.075 * 0.12 * 40 = 0,36 mm when you heat it from 0�C to 40�C (see https://www.pmma.dk/acryl_expansion.aspx?Lang=en-GB). If you did the same calculation for a brass bulwark running along the whole model, you would have an elongation of only 0,09 mm, so a difference of 0.27 mm. Yes one could perhaps see some minor cracks at the ends ...

I have been thinking, however, of a combination of acrylic glass and polystyrene, which is what I am intending to use in my next project. Both plastics have similar expansion coefficients, so I expect no problems.

Hi Jim, happy to chime in on this lovely new project of yours! I see your hull is already well off the mark, including the gunports you dreaded! They look very sharp at first glance.

Hi Eberhard,
Thank you for doing the math! Do I summarize this then correctly: the problem is metal vs. plastics/woods. When you have an insufficiently strong bond (i.e. welding/soldering) between the metal railing and ANY other material hull, you might run into an expansion problem i.e. cracking.
Therefore, the only good solution I see is 1: using only short lengths of railing < 3 inch, and 2: using flexible glue to cement these to the hull (and to eachother). So no CA but using PVA glue instead.

Or keep your stellar Normandie in a temp controlled environment forever...

[JIM BAUMANN]

Hi Maarten --thank you for joining in !

You say;
>> 1: using only short lengths of railing < 3 inch,
2: using flexible glue to cement these to the hull (and to eachother). So no CA but using PVA glue instead.<<

I refer you to this illustrated historical post from 2008 ( !! ) "Deck rail methods"

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37612

an example from there is on my 1/350 Roma --
a huge lump of resin that expands and contracts with temperature variation.
to prevent the ' snaking ' of long lengths of railing when the hull gets longer or shorter...
the rails were applied cutting and shutting to get stanchions in correct places and have flex in the rail.
see the image below

The white arrows point to the joins in the railing made with white glue as a " flexi joint "

Stainless steel moves much less than brass...



cheers

JIM B

[JIM BAUMANN]

Back to sailing ships;


a small update but a big milestone....

in preparation of installing the poop deck, I had to construct & paint the accommodation, as well as support for the deck to come.

On the face of it this is simple stuff -- but the wooden construction was panelled with 3 x very small( mullioned ) windows ( one behind the wheel )

These were cut from a part fret I suspect was 1/700 North Star French battleship windows-- so it would be kind of appropriate!!

I need quite a lot for the stern windows as well as the apertures below the poopdeck

I found suitable size " panneling " on an unlikely piece of PE in my PE scrap box..... French Radars...! ( elderly L'arsenal PE )-- but French!
just the right height and spacing to fit

Making cut as below, rendered pleasing 'panel outline'-- the line thickness of this PE was much finer than any ladders

Once applied it all started to look more pleasing to the eye, with the flush fit doors being represented by a strip of nut-brow decal strip
( I have to draw attention to it now , as otherwise it will rarely be observed again ! )

The styrene poop sub-deck was applied ,ensuring that it curved over the centre ' spine -
using the supports underneath -with plenty of 'cushioning' of white glue under it

The paper poop deck was affixed over a thin curved styrene deck-- to allow plenty of white glue

The grating , slim hatch and wheels structure were installed

and it looked much happier!

and then more filling , sanding and fairing before the hammock level goes on...

more soon
JB

[wefalck]

[pascalemod]

For the ships helm / wheel, what did you use?

The work youve done on the stern area is mindboggling!

[Pieter]

Absolutely brilliant never-to-be-seen-again's. And does this mean Bretagne will be at anchor or are you going squeeze two men in?

[JIM BAUMANN]

thanks Pieter; the 2 x guys will be either side of the wheel--

they will be placed before masts or other verticals..-- with oblique tweezers !!



the ship will be under sail , about 3 or so degrees heel, broad reaching in about Force 4 @ 7 -8 knots

( max sped under sail was over 12 knots!!--and 13.5 under steam ..impressive for that era )

[marijn van gils]

the ship will be under sail , about 3 or so degrees heel, broad reaching in about Force 4 @ 7 -8 knots

That should look spectacular!

Amazing how you managed to file the edges of those tiny PE frames without crushing them. How do you hold them while filing? Just in a pair of pliers?

[JIM BAUMANN]

@Marjinn

I use flat & thick ( non deflecting under load ) tweezers,
with a layer of masking tape on the jaws ( this embeds the brass slightly )
so as to inhibit it slipping/ pinging out ! ( there are some losses, never to be seen again )
=========================================================

Latest progress consists in part of the usual coarse bits of major (relatively ) construction
and very very fine works of tiny things...

Onwards....

From the quarter deck descending to the main deck is a set of stairs each side that --unusually--are not straight; but have a 90 degree curve within

This is harder than it looks...

I --very usefully ---- had some spare 1/ 350 Regia Marina PE with a funnel surround platform intended for the ROMA Battleship

( my 2007-8 build of the Axis models RESIN model of that as below )

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/it/bb/350-roma-jb/jb-review.html

which is nice but does not have the near 90 degree shape;
so I experimented....

cutting out very small segments between the horizonals...

pushing it together and curving.... to ... 90 degrees

and then twisting !

So far so good with the experiment --all I had to do now was do it all again--twice--in opposite directions

we shall see....


Meanwhile--major constructions... ( on a tiny ship 27mm wide !)

The fwd beak was next for attention ... this was formed using brass strips--lightly tapered

The beak ( paper ) deck was added

Thereafter the tricky bit...

The underside of the beak had a curved " fairing " into the beak--on the real ship this would be planks-over-frames
its a tricky 3-D shape and very small--ergo no planks for me!

It would like this -- as on the ship ' Valmy ' --photo from the splendid HUGE model in the erstwhile Foyer of the Paris Musee de Marine ( that was)
( Valmy was somewhat earlier member of the Ocean class

( Bretagne was based on the improved and enlarged Ocean class)

( The white dotted profile lines are from me )

the solution was to make a template ( post it note again !) and the cut a piece of paper to the correct aft intersection curve

the procedure can be gleaned from the annotated images below

If you were wondering what happened with stairs....

herewith;

onwards to the big quarterdeck skylight, grating and flag locker etc

next time ...

JB

[SG1]

Awesome work of genius!

[marijn van gils]

Thank you Jim!


I never realized how different the beakheads of these 'round-bow-ships' were in comparison to the earlier structure with rails. Great job how you made that with paper!

[JIM BAUMANN]

How to spend a lot of time....

This was the building of the large skylight for the quarterdeck.......

I had a nice piece available of ' radar ' PE .....

when bent up it made a passable rendition--it is after all very small.....

The small glazing bars could be achieved with the help of the 1970's Mabex waterslide decal transfer.....
( bought at a model train show in the 1980's and unused...

and the result was OK!... ( ...but was it really OK ? ?!)

After a sleepless night of turning it over in my mind (!! ).....

==> I decided that my impatience and lack of application had resulted in a skylight that was was wrong,
was not good enough, lacked finesse and was too blocky.




===================================================================================================================

Entirely my own fault for taking the short-cut that presented itself conveniently .. and .... misguidedly ....initially I wanted it hollow so I could glaze it with white glue

==> ....but having cut tiny squares of ' Landrover grille decal ' and installed them-- it defeated the entire point of being hollow.!

after much thought I devised a new plan .

====================================================================================================================
I could make a solid core, and overlay different sizes of Photo-etched ladder-stock

( I had plenty in all scales and variant sizes - acquired whilst trying to find the Utopian size ' gunport-frames PE squares '

Instead of individual tiles of windows-- I would use strips of the LR grille decal-- held down and straight with blu-tack at each end ,
then overlay the appropriates size PE, pre-painted- then tack it on to the decal with matt enamel varnish. ( Humbrol Matt-kote )

When dry --another drop of thinned matt varnish spread over the surface bonded the
decal LR grille strips to the PE fully

and only then trim the decal ends with a new 10 blade in a scalpel

Thus..... I ended up with a " kit " of component parts to surround my previously cut 'core '

Hitherto ........the time expended was somewhat disproportionate to the tangible progress..!


But the end result when assembled

( tacked with matt varnish and then droplets of CA brushed from underneath
so that the capillary action drew the glue into the ' gap' between the core and decal strip )

with a few additional small bits added and the new window bars closer spaced ( 'blacked ' with indelible marker
looked more agreeable to my eyes than that compromised first effort !

( its very small )

The lower edges of the tapered cut will be overlaid in situ ( after installation to the deck )
-- with flat stretched brown sprue in the manner of a skirting-board-- this will tidy it up nicely!


For a bit of light relief....

I made the near full width flag locker for the quarterdeck ( styrene square strip with paper lid)

and the quarterdeck staircase entrance ( at the moment still over-height -it will be cut and shortened to suit down a 1/700 officer....

More soon

JIm B

[wefalck]

What a journey ...

Confronted in around 1980 with the issue of a multi-angled 'Victorian' skylight and having access to a milling machine, I milled the core of the skylight from a piece of acrylic glass, polished the faces and then stuck on the stiles and frames with CA. That has been my method for skylights and companionways (if they are not open) since.

[Iceman 29]

It's hard to work at the atomic level!

[JIM BAUMANN]

@ Wefalck-- in what scale was that?

I say that ... I ask as I have a 1/192 scale Victorian Navy HMS Victoria ,
abandoned in a box since 2005....
for the time when my eyesight weakens....

That ship also has pointy skylights....
which at the time defeated me to render them precisely --
see below

cheers
Jim B

[EJFoeth]

Superb skylightlet

[wefalck]

Jim, I last used such acrylic glass plugs for the engineroom- and other skylights on my SMS WESPE (1876) project in 1:160: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=158123&start=20

I first created a home-etched frame and then milled the acrylic glass plug to measure. That way around was easier then trying fit the etching to the plug.


The etched frame


Polishing the acrylic plug in the same set up in which it had been milled


Plug inserted into the frame

The frame was then painted to resemble mahagony and the protective grille added by lengths of brass-coloured wire that were lacquered into grooves that were etched into the inside of the frame to ensure equal spacing.




Originally, I conceived this idea for the 1860s/70s steam-tug in 1:60 scale (https://www.maritima-et-mechanika.org/m ... ustug.html). At that time there was no Internet and no buildings logs, so I don't have any process photographs, but the process was the same, except that the brass-frames were sawn, rather than etched. Over this I added walnut styles and frames, stained to resemble mahagony. The skylight is about 1.5 cm by 1.5 cm.