Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[Solicitor]

Tim:

Man, I don't like to sound like I'm bitching- your Benson (etc) is the finest plastic model kit I've ever worked with, hands down (and that includes the big Pocher Fiat.) Congratulations and keep up the great work!

In fact, the existence of some historical inaccuracies just make it easier to live with my own! I had just painted the dazzle before Rick posted the photos, so my model follows the Ships-2 chart rather than Benson's actual paint, which was slightly different in places.

--------------------

Now, a few noob questions for the experts:

1) There is a pair of tanks mounted on the deckhouse bulkhead, looking vaguely like scuba tanks. What are they, and how should they be painted?

2) What was the paint scheme for motor whaleboats?

3) I can't figure out the ground tackle. How did they handle two anchors with a single wildcat? The instructions show the starboard chain running into the forward end of the spurling pipe cover, which can't be right; and there's no indication of how many stoppers were used and where they were located.

4) When was Benson's director radar changed from Mk 4 (or 12) to Mk 28?

5) How many load markings were there above the boot-topping?

6) What color were depth charges painted as delivered from the depot/AE? Was it typical or exceptional for ships to repaint them?

[Rick E Davis]

Solicitor,

I'll try to answer your questions.

1) If you are referring to the three tanks, in the photo, strapped to the deckhouse below the # 1 TT mount, they look like acetyl tanks for welding to me. No idea of what they would be painted.

2) The whaleboats, down to only one by 1945, would be painted according to the background camo scheme.

3) The anchors were reduced to only the starboard anchor by 1945 (see a theme here in measures done to reduce weight). Note that the port opening has been plated over. As for the mechanics of how the anchors were raised, I don't know for sure, but I think it was done below decks. Just for the interest, here is a view of BENSON's bow when she still had two anchors.



4) BENSON likely received her Mk 28 radar in her early 1945 refit. None of the BENSON-GLEAVES ever had the Mk 12 radar, there wasn't enough room for it in their early taper-backed MOD Mk 37 directors. About 2/3 of BENSON-GLEAVES units had a Mk 22 added to the Mk 4 starting in mid-1944 prior to being replaced by the Mk 28 radar.

5) Load markings;



6) Color of Depth Charges as delivered from the depot. We have debated this and no one knows the answer for sure. It was common for the D/C's to be painted to blend in with the camo scheme as much as possible ... to one degree or another. In BENSON's case, it would appear that all the D/C's were in the same "dark" paint area and that the D/C's were also painted dark.

[Solicitor]

Rick:

Thanks so much. That last picture makes things clear, at least for the late-war one-anchor arrangement. Up from the locker, aroud the wildcat, forward to the hawsepipe and out. The padeye for the stopper looks like it's just at the front of the spurling pipe.

The starboard anchor- not there, no problem! I wonder if all along it was a backup for emergencies, since there just doesn't seem to be any way to weigh the thing without the insanely backbreaking job of manhandling it around the wildcat- urrgh! But then, I don't see how it could have been let go, wither, with nothing to brake it. Hmmm. At any rate, it's no longer a concern- I'll just have to plate over the hawsepipe.

[Russ2146]

Solicitor,

The cylinders strapped to the deck house are compressed gas tanks. The two taller ones are probably oxygen and the shorter one acetylene.
My handy Blue Jacket's Manual tells me that the cylinders were labeled and color coded. Oxygen is green, Acetylene yellow. In this scenario, the color would be applied to the valve cap and a band around the shoulder of the cylinder. To me, the cylinders in the photo have a flat silver/gray appearance to sort of blend in.

By the way, fire fighting CO2 is red.

[Cadman]

Here's a view of the bow equipment so you can see the mechanics without the chain in the way. Typically one chain was wrapped around the capstan while the other was clamped to the chain locker cover.

[Solicitor]

Thanks, Russ and Tim. I know (firsthand) how USN anchor gear is set up- but my ship had two wildcats, one for each side. What I can't figure out is what to do with the other (starboard) chain if there's only one wildcat

[Russ2146]

Chapter 4, Page 11 http://www.hnsa.org/doc/pdf/seaman.pdf

The wildcat pulls up the chain, but it is not what holds the anchor into the hawse pipe. That is done by the Chain Stopper or Hawse Pendant. So with a single wildcat, one chain is lifted off the wildcat to allow the other chain to be placed on it. The chain stopper takes the strain off the wildcat. One end of the stopper is a pelican hook that grabs a link of the chain and the other end is attached to a padeye welded to the deck.

Chain too heavy? Well there's toolfor that called a cable jack.

Russ

Also Boatswain's Mate Navedtra 14343, figure 4-15

[Solicitor]

Thanks, Russ. I'm aware of the function of the stopper/pelican hook; what I couldn't force myself to accept was that anchor chain could be lifted on/off the wildcat with anything short of a yard crane. I guess DD chain just wasn't as heavy as ours was!

Am I correct therefore in assuming that the stbd anchor on these DDs was more or less a backup, and the portside anchor was the one ordinarily used?

[el Cid]

Thanks, Russ. I'm aware of the function of the stopper/pelican hook; what I couldn't force myself to accept was that anchor chain could be lifted on/off the wildcat with anything short of a yard crane. I guess DD chain just wasn't as heavy as ours was!

If memory serves, each link of FFG-8 class chain weighs ~30lbs and the figs displace more than twice the Benson/Gleaves. So I assume the chain links are somewhat proportional. I've got no first hand experience, but I think moving short lengths of DD chain between the wildcat and chain pipe would be do-able. And they're not called deck apes for nothing.

Cheers,

Keith

[Russ2146]

None of the pubs I've found actually show a single wildcat. Whether a ship would use one anchor over another and for what reason, I don't know.

I do know that it is possible to totally disconnect the anchors from the chains and hold them in the hawse pipes with chain stoppers and /or hawse pendants. One reason to do this is "tying" up to a mooring buoy. The chain is disconnected and then run through the bow chock and out to the buoy. Or, heavy line could be attached to the chain and then to the buoy, in which case the chain functioned to eliminate chafing at the chock, which would damage the line.

Another use of chain as chafing gear was in towing. A couple of fathoms of chain and a pelican hook would be man-handled to the stern where it was rigged towing padeye, pelican hook, chain through stern chock, tow line.

As stated above, anchors, and presumably chain, were actually removed from ships to save weight, leaving the ship with one anchor and chain.

[Solicitor]

I'm trying to deal with the seated binocular mounts behind the spray shields atop the pilot house: parts K-1 and (PE) MA-2 and MA-6. The instructions are absolutely hopeless here, even with a magnifying glass! Rick's photo posted here May 29 helps some, but not clear enough on how to bend and attach those minuscule pieces of brass shimstock.

Any help? Drawings? Photos?

[Russ2146]

Does this help?

Russ

[Solicitor]

WOW! Yes!

[Russ2146]

I've seen two other photos in B&W, somewhere in the Naval Heritage & History Command on-line collection. They were two views of the devices taken in the design office. I'm kicking myself for not copying them to my folders. Floating Drydock has blueprints available.

Russ

[Russ2146]

Found this shot in the USS Slater newsletters. http://www.ussslater.org/
They'd appreciate any help in maintaining one of the last two DEs.

Sky Lookout 2.jpg (52.9 KiB) Viewed 3945 times

[EJFoeth]

The Floating Drydock's Planbook of the Gearing and Sumner class destroyer shows a few images plus drawings of the sky lookout (called air lookout in UK parlance).

(This is a most useful reference if you want to build a US destroyer).

[almg]

Merry Christmas everybody !

I'm going to build soon the Dragon's kit USS Benson and I have few questions for you:

- What camouflage wore the boat when he was assigned to the Atlantic Ocean in 1943-1944 ? Overall measure 21 Navy Blue or another ?

- Did he have the same weapons ?

Finally has someone pictures of DD-421 at that time ?



Alban

[Rick E Davis]

Alban,

For much of 1943-44 BENSON wore the Ms 22 camo Scheme. BENSON retained five 5-in mounts until early in 1944 when she was upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts and had the temporary installation of a platform for four additional 20-mm guns in place of the aft torpedo tube mount. At some point after she completed this mod in March 1944 (likely in April or May 1944), BENSON had two single 40-mm mounts installed (as seen in the view of NIBLACK below). In early 1945 BENSON lost the extra AA guns and had the aft TT mount installed, plus other upgrades to her fire control radar and Mk 51 directors added, etc.


BENSON on 10 May 1943





BENSON on 14 March 1944


NIBLACK (DD-424) on 9 April 1944 with the single 40-mm mounts installed.



BENSON on 10 March 1945

[almg]

Hello Rick

Moreover, do you know what other Benson class destroyers that sailed the Atlantic in 1943 and 1944 with the same camouflage ?
Did some have the same arms as the Benson in 1945 ?

Happy Holidays!

Alban

[Rick E Davis]

Alban,

I'm not sure how to answer your questions. If when you say "BENSON class" destroyers do you mean the ships of the BENSON class (flat sided stacks) or the BENSON-GLEAVES dual class that some call in total the "BENSON class"? I don't know if you are trying to figure which units you can model from the BENSON 1945 kit or are just curious.

For the original BENSON-GLEAVES group (DD421-444) and repeat BENSON-GLEAVES group (DD453 and after) it appears that all the units serving in the Atlantic worn Ms 22 camo in 1943 and into the start of 1944. Exactly when a given unit was repainted into a dazzle scheme, I don't know for most units. They didn't take photos or note in records every time a ship was repainted.

The only units to still have five 5-in mounts installed after the war started (7 December 1941) were eight units of DesRon 7: BENSON, MAYO, GLEAVES, NIBLACK, MADISON, LANSDALE, H. P. JONES, and C. F. HUGHES (the ninth unit PLUNKETT ... a GLEAVES class unit ... lost 53 mount before the war started). MAYO ... a BENSON class unit ... lost her 53 mount in February 1942 and had a quad 1.1-in mount replace it. NIBLACK ... a GLEAVES class unit ... lost her 53 mount and was upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts in March 1943, the remaining BENSON class units, MADISON, LANSDALE, H. P. JONES, and C. F. HUGHES, lost their 53 mount and were upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts in the Fall of 1943. The two remaining units, BENSON and GLEAVES, retained their 53 mount until early 1945 after serving in the MED off Italy and then were upgraded as the others. Exactly which units got the platform with four 20-mm and which got the two single 40-mm mounts AND WHEN ... is a problem. Sixteen units (DD421-432 and DD437-440) were authorized both mods, but some units may not have gotten both. Some of these extra temporary AA gun mods took place at New York Navy Yard, and some took place in the MED by local forces (MADISON, LANSDALE, H. P. JONES, and C. F. HUGHES were modified by VUCLAN (AR-5) at Oran). There are only a few photos that show these mods.

The other surviving early units of the GLEAVES class (DD429-430, 432, 437-443) operating in the Atlantic, were modified similar to the BENSON March 1944 view earlier in 1943 (dates vary and the aft deckhouse bulwarks and Mk 51 locations were different) starting in January to September.