Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
Adding details. I'm not sure the rivets will be printable in 1/350th, but its worth a try.
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
More directorly goodness...
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
Almost done. How does the height of the director tub look? It may need the little height extension that Mr. Davis referenced in the Sims thread.
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I actually like the slightly raised tub. It looks better to me and closer to most photos, although there are exceptions.
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
When you're on a roll, you're on a roll... I'm going to stop here for the night to study photos about the aft deckhouse's configuration and details. I know its too tall; that's just the initial extrusion. I'll cop it down once I have an accurate height figured out. The plan is to offer the plain tub with director tubs, and one with the deckhouse.
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Rick E Davis
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
You are getting close, very close.
However, I think you are confusing two different "structures" with the Mk 49 director and the "director tub" used with the Mk 51 director. The director tub (bulwark spray shield) wasn't used when the Mk 49 director was installed. It looks like you have used the Mk 51 bulwark as the body of the Mk 49 director in this illustration.
The director base (pedestal) was the same diameter as the Mk 49 director and was attached together with an outside flange as you can see in the image below on the destroyer to the left (USS TRATHEN). When the Mk 51 director was installed, a platform plate was installed atop the director base and the Mk 51 director installed on that. See the destroyer to the right in this image (USS SCHROEDER). The platform was larger than the director base so that the Mk 51 operator could work with it, being according to the drawings I posted last time, about the same radius as the radius of the forward end bulwark. Some destroyers had pipe rails around the Mk 51, some had a solid bulwark, and some used stanchions and chains. In most cases they used canvas over the pipe rails to shield the director somewhat from spray.
For your 40-mm tub here, you need to only have the director base to keep it generic for all applications. OR you need to develop variations for the different methods used/seen on FLETCHERS. With the "generic" tub, a Mk 49 director would simply sit on top of the director base. For a Mk 51 application, a platform plate (normally a circle with the aft end cut off square to allow for the 40-mm mount to fully traverse the full working circle) and a Mk 51 director with whatever type of bulwark/spray shield/railing with or without canvas can be installed. I think those Mk 51 director/platform parts are something that modelers "should" be able to scratch make (a simple disk for the platform) and/or will come with their kit or best acquired from aftermarket suppliers. But a detailed Mk 51 director tub may be a desired item with the canvas cover pipe railings. But made separate from the 40-mm Gun Tub.
I like the idea of offering separate Mk 49 directors and I don't know that you want to offer Mk 51 directors, almost every kit maker and aftermarket parts supplier offers Mk 51 directors. NO ONE offers Mk 49 directors.
Your rendition of the Mk 49 is really nice. But may be a bit too big in diameter and too short in height above the director pedestal.
Do you see what I'm saying?
However, I think you are confusing two different "structures" with the Mk 49 director and the "director tub" used with the Mk 51 director. The director tub (bulwark spray shield) wasn't used when the Mk 49 director was installed. It looks like you have used the Mk 51 bulwark as the body of the Mk 49 director in this illustration.
The director base (pedestal) was the same diameter as the Mk 49 director and was attached together with an outside flange as you can see in the image below on the destroyer to the left (USS TRATHEN). When the Mk 51 director was installed, a platform plate was installed atop the director base and the Mk 51 director installed on that. See the destroyer to the right in this image (USS SCHROEDER). The platform was larger than the director base so that the Mk 51 operator could work with it, being according to the drawings I posted last time, about the same radius as the radius of the forward end bulwark. Some destroyers had pipe rails around the Mk 51, some had a solid bulwark, and some used stanchions and chains. In most cases they used canvas over the pipe rails to shield the director somewhat from spray.
For your 40-mm tub here, you need to only have the director base to keep it generic for all applications. OR you need to develop variations for the different methods used/seen on FLETCHERS. With the "generic" tub, a Mk 49 director would simply sit on top of the director base. For a Mk 51 application, a platform plate (normally a circle with the aft end cut off square to allow for the 40-mm mount to fully traverse the full working circle) and a Mk 51 director with whatever type of bulwark/spray shield/railing with or without canvas can be installed. I think those Mk 51 director/platform parts are something that modelers "should" be able to scratch make (a simple disk for the platform) and/or will come with their kit or best acquired from aftermarket suppliers. But a detailed Mk 51 director tub may be a desired item with the canvas cover pipe railings. But made separate from the 40-mm Gun Tub.
I like the idea of offering separate Mk 49 directors and I don't know that you want to offer Mk 51 directors, almost every kit maker and aftermarket parts supplier offers Mk 51 directors. NO ONE offers Mk 49 directors.
Your rendition of the Mk 49 is really nice. But may be a bit too big in diameter and too short in height above the director pedestal.
Do you see what I'm saying?
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I was using this photo at the Researcher At Large site for details on the Mark 49 and its pedestal: http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/ ... 3Aug43.jpg . What's unclear to me is if the lower pedestal is:
1. Of a different diameter than the upper pedestal, or...
2. The same diameter at all elevations, but the illusion of different diameters is being caused by the stiffener ring below oval access hatch on the rear of the upper pedestal.
The hardware on the exterior of the director is generaic
If its just all one constant diameter, then perfect, that's an easy fix.
My tentative plan is to offer a small sprue of director tubs, with each 40mm tear drop tub, maybe one with the Mark 49, one with the splinter shielding all around, and one with the splinter shielding on the outside and rails on the inside.
1. Of a different diameter than the upper pedestal, or...
2. The same diameter at all elevations, but the illusion of different diameters is being caused by the stiffener ring below oval access hatch on the rear of the upper pedestal.
The hardware on the exterior of the director is generaic
If its just all one constant diameter, then perfect, that's an easy fix.
My tentative plan is to offer a small sprue of director tubs, with each 40mm tear drop tub, maybe one with the Mark 49, one with the splinter shielding all around, and one with the splinter shielding on the outside and rails on the inside.
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Rick E Davis
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I gave that image to Tracy. 
Tracy and I have the same keen interest in the Mk 49 director. Some of the early ESSEX class (and USS NEW JERSEY) had a few Mk 49 directors. There are many photos showing these directors being used, but none have been modeled. I have documented most (if not all) FLETCHERS that had Mk 49 directors installed. What is hard is figuring out WHEN they were removed and replaced with Mk 51 directors.
The diameters are the same. If you look to the right of the director and pedestal and eyeball past the mating flange, you can tell the pedestal and director are in line and hence the same diameter.
The options sound good, but I really would like to get some Mk 49 directors by themselves for use elsewhere on FLETCHERS and the few GLEAVES class units that had them.
Tracy and I have the same keen interest in the Mk 49 director. Some of the early ESSEX class (and USS NEW JERSEY) had a few Mk 49 directors. There are many photos showing these directors being used, but none have been modeled. I have documented most (if not all) FLETCHERS that had Mk 49 directors installed. What is hard is figuring out WHEN they were removed and replaced with Mk 51 directors.
The diameters are the same. If you look to the right of the director and pedestal and eyeball past the mating flange, you can tell the pedestal and director are in line and hence the same diameter.
The options sound good, but I really would like to get some Mk 49 directors by themselves for use elsewhere on FLETCHERS and the few GLEAVES class units that had them.
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I can do that. They should come in their own little pedestals, right? I can cook up a sprue of3-4 of them, the directors atop their own pedestals.
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Rick E Davis
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
Sorry, I missed your question before.
Right off my head I would say they can come with the pedestal. That was a "standard" installation item. For some locations, not on FLETCHERS as far as I can tell, a "riser" was used to get the Mk 49 director higher (was used on some of the GLEAVES class destroyers). But, if anyone is going to use the Mk 49 models for that, a simple cylinder cut to length will work.
After thinking about what I said above, I have to amend it or rather make sure we are talking the same think here. When you say "with the Pedestal", do you mean what I have named in this CAD view as the "director base"? Because those two parts are an integral part of the director. The base had all the motors for rotating the operator controlled tracker in azimuth. What I call the pedestal (or riser) is what the director is mounted to. It serves as the interface to the ship and to mount the director at the desired height. The height of the pedestal for the FLETCHERS in the aft twin 40-mm location was taller than on some ship applications where they used a shorter or taller pedestal. On the GLEAVES class, they used a 18-in pedestal (called a riser in their case).
If you produce the Mk 49 directors WITH the pedestal used on FLETCHERS, then you can't put it atop the pedestal that is being made with the tub. Otherwise the total thing will be TOO high. See that bottom image showing a Mk 49 director installed on the midships director platform on the second stack of a FLETCHER (this one with a radar installed). You can see that in this case, the director is mounted directly on the platform without a pedestal.
To review, the Mk 49 Director Base, the cylinder part, is about 4-ft in height and 5-ft, 6-in in diameter.
Right off my head I would say they can come with the pedestal. That was a "standard" installation item. For some locations, not on FLETCHERS as far as I can tell, a "riser" was used to get the Mk 49 director higher (was used on some of the GLEAVES class destroyers). But, if anyone is going to use the Mk 49 models for that, a simple cylinder cut to length will work.
After thinking about what I said above, I have to amend it or rather make sure we are talking the same think here. When you say "with the Pedestal", do you mean what I have named in this CAD view as the "director base"? Because those two parts are an integral part of the director. The base had all the motors for rotating the operator controlled tracker in azimuth. What I call the pedestal (or riser) is what the director is mounted to. It serves as the interface to the ship and to mount the director at the desired height. The height of the pedestal for the FLETCHERS in the aft twin 40-mm location was taller than on some ship applications where they used a shorter or taller pedestal. On the GLEAVES class, they used a 18-in pedestal (called a riser in their case).
If you produce the Mk 49 directors WITH the pedestal used on FLETCHERS, then you can't put it atop the pedestal that is being made with the tub. Otherwise the total thing will be TOO high. See that bottom image showing a Mk 49 director installed on the midships director platform on the second stack of a FLETCHER (this one with a radar installed). You can see that in this case, the director is mounted directly on the platform without a pedestal.
To review, the Mk 49 Director Base, the cylinder part, is about 4-ft in height and 5-ft, 6-in in diameter.
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
Great info, thanks! Yes, I was referring to the entire base as the pedestal. Thank you for realizing my poor use of terminology.
Here is the director using those dimensions for the cylindrical mounting base, as in a package of three directors. It still looks short to my eyes, but I used the dimensions given in feet, converted to milimeters, and then scaled to 1/350th. The director itself looks to be the right size given that it fits properly atop the cylinder, but the base still looks short to me.
The cylinder itself is now about 3.4 mils tall, and is about 4.8 mils wide. Of course, this now makes me question my scaling on the tub as the director is now far smaller than it was before. Hmmm... I must be doing something wrong.
Bob
Here is the director using those dimensions for the cylindrical mounting base, as in a package of three directors. It still looks short to my eyes, but I used the dimensions given in feet, converted to milimeters, and then scaled to 1/350th. The director itself looks to be the right size given that it fits properly atop the cylinder, but the base still looks short to me.
The cylinder itself is now about 3.4 mils tall, and is about 4.8 mils wide. Of course, this now makes me question my scaling on the tub as the director is now far smaller than it was before. Hmmm... I must be doing something wrong.
Bob
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Rick E Davis
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I don't see any image in your post?
All I can suggest is to check all dimensions again. I may have messed up as well. Best to look at the various small drawings I have posted, if you can't read any of them, let me know and I'll cross check as best I can while on the road.
All I can suggest is to check all dimensions again. I may have messed up as well. Best to look at the various small drawings I have posted, if you can't read any of them, let me know and I'll cross check as best I can while on the road.
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aptivaboy
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Sorry the image didn't go through. Brain lock on my part. I'd like to finish the whole shebang within two weeks, tops. School just started, but things won't get really busy for a brief time. Then its all teaching, all of the time. Plus, we just got a new administrator (can you say fascist?) who seems intent on piling on the work. Sigh... After the gun tub and director, I'll likely take a break just to clear my mind and to teach, my real job! As we like to say, I'm a California public high school teacher. Please pray for me.
In terms of scaling, all I really need is the fore and aft length of the gun tub and the height of the deckhouse. I couldn't quite make those out in the plans. The tub itself is in scale with itself, meaning with all of its component parts, but the tub isn't in scale with the director. Somewhere down the line, I made an error with the scale conversion factor, so the parts look right, but are clearly not the correct size in relation to each other.
In terms of the director, my thought was to offer the following:
- Make a sprue of three directors.
- Make a sprue of three with the small Benson/Gleaves extension.
- Supply the gun tub and deckhouse with one Fletcher-height director.
It won't be possible to add the radar dish as in the photo above. The printing resolution is just too tight, so that might be something best left to photoetch. I might be able to add the little plexiglass window, maybe.
Bob
In terms of scaling, all I really need is the fore and aft length of the gun tub and the height of the deckhouse. I couldn't quite make those out in the plans. The tub itself is in scale with itself, meaning with all of its component parts, but the tub isn't in scale with the director. Somewhere down the line, I made an error with the scale conversion factor, so the parts look right, but are clearly not the correct size in relation to each other.
In terms of the director, my thought was to offer the following:
- Make a sprue of three directors.
- Make a sprue of three with the small Benson/Gleaves extension.
- Supply the gun tub and deckhouse with one Fletcher-height director.
It won't be possible to add the radar dish as in the photo above. The printing resolution is just too tight, so that might be something best left to photoetch. I might be able to add the little plexiglass window, maybe.
Bob
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I was taking a small break from the tear drop shaped tub and decided to bang this guy out. Thoughts? Should I include the hatches or leave those for the builder to attach via photoetch? The part is 6mm tall from the base to the deck inside the tub, and 9mm tall from the base to the top of the splinter shielding railing. I think I did the scaling correctly this time, using dimensions in the Floating Drydock's Plan Book. Thoughts? Places to improve? Things to correct? Given the variations in this part (rubbing, stiffeners, fiddly bits hanging on the sides, etc.) unique to each ship, I'm actually reluctant to add very much detail to this design.
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Rick E Davis
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I'm on the road, I'll check what dimensions are in the Floating Drydock FLETCHER Plan book when I get home. But just looking at it the proportions of the director "tub" to the rest of the "gun tub", they look off in being too small. I don't know if the deckhouse is too big or the director tub is too small. Since you are expanding to doing the deckhouse with the tub, I'll need to check dimensions of it on the drawings.
Earlier I posted an image of a MINY style tub, look at it for reference.
Earlier I posted an image of a MINY style tub, look at it for reference.
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
I think its that the tub is likely too small. Then again, I've also found that the way the image is rendered often affects the apparent size of parts of a design. Common sense says that it shouldn't, but it does. I took the dimensions which are in 3/16th (1/64th) scale, converted them to 1:1, and then converted everything to 1/350th.
Bob
PS. The director tub is for the Mark 51, not the Mark 49. That may explain the potentially smaller visible size?
Bob
PS. The director tub is for the Mark 51, not the Mark 49. That may explain the potentially smaller visible size?
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Rick E Davis
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
A Mk 51 director "tub" would be larger than a Mk 49 director being used alone in its place.
The Floating Drydock FLETCHER Plan e-Book drawings aren't too different than what I have already provided. Only with much fewer details.
There were a lot of variants to the aft 40-mm mount deckhouse and as you say keeping it to the basics likely would be best. But, I need to think about things like door details that were common. The idea to PE for doors is to be more detailed, particularly on areas that can't be readily molded. But, "printed" detail can at times be just as detailed as PE. Maybe just having the locations of the doors raised or depressed slightly to indicate where they should go???
The Floating Drydock FLETCHER Plan e-Book drawings aren't too different than what I have already provided. Only with much fewer details.
There were a lot of variants to the aft 40-mm mount deckhouse and as you say keeping it to the basics likely would be best. But, I need to think about things like door details that were common. The idea to PE for doors is to be more detailed, particularly on areas that can't be readily molded. But, "printed" detail can at times be just as detailed as PE. Maybe just having the locations of the doors raised or depressed slightly to indicate where they should go???
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
Definitely fewer details! I just went with them for the basic shapes since they gave dimensions and are in a constant scale, so rescaling them to 1:1 and then to 1/350th is really easy. I'm using your plans and photos for the detailing after doing the scaling.
Bob
Bob
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
Okay, I think I have this guy mostly figured out. The director tub should be the right size, now. You were right, Mr. Davis, I had made it the wrong size. The little scallops in the splinter shielding have been added, as have the beginning of two hatches. I�m calling this the O�Bannon deckhouse and gun tub as its more or less based upon the O�Bannon�s tub after refitting at Mare Island after her damage with Selfridge, but it could generically suffice for any number of Fletchers, I suppose.
Other than the hatches, there probably won�t be much more surface detail due to the wide variations in details between ships, unless there is a specific detail common to a large number of them that anyone can point out. The big issue will be the 40 mm clips and internal supports inside of the shielding. O�Bannon didn�t appear to have the up and down rubbing/stiffeners as some tubs had affixed to the exterior of the shielding, as far as I can tell, but I can probably do those if there�s a demand for it.
Feedback appreciated.
Bob
Other than the hatches, there probably won�t be much more surface detail due to the wide variations in details between ships, unless there is a specific detail common to a large number of them that anyone can point out. The big issue will be the 40 mm clips and internal supports inside of the shielding. O�Bannon didn�t appear to have the up and down rubbing/stiffeners as some tubs had affixed to the exterior of the shielding, as far as I can tell, but I can probably do those if there�s a demand for it.
Feedback appreciated.
Bob
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aptivaboy
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Re: Fletcher Gun Tubs and Mark 49 Director
PS. Were there any details on the undersurface of the part of the tub hanging over the after deck?