Venezuela: Nation May Buy 5 Russian Subs

[Jack Ray]

Food for thought...



Venezuela:
Nation May Buy 5 Russian Subs
Los Angeles Times
June 15, 2007
By Times Wire Reports

Venezuela is considering buying Russian submarines that would transform the South American country into the region's top naval force, a military advisor to President Hugo Chavez said.

Gen. Alberto Muller, responding to a Russian newspaper report that Chavez plans to sign a deal for five diesel submarines, said the government was "analyzing the possibilities" but that funding had not been allocated.

Oil-rich Venezuela has purchased about $3 billion in military goods from Russia, including 53 helicopters, 100,000 Kalashnikov rifles and 24 Sukhoi fighter jets.

[Filipe Ramires]

Any idea of the class of submarines they are intending to purchase???
Perhaps a few Foxtrots or Tangos!!!!

[Jack Ray]

If this is true, probably Kilos.

[Filipe Ramires]

As expected then.

[JWintjes]

Of course they'll also get the expertise to properly operate the subs in an instant...

Jorit

[MartinJQuinn]

Of course they'll also get the expertise to properly operate the subs in an instant...

Jorit

With Russian crews...

[Jack Ray]

JWintjes wrote:
Of course they'll also get the expertise to properly operate the subs in an instant...

Jorit


With Russian crews...

Business is business, right?

[Guest]

Nor will their neighbors acquire the expertise required to sink an inexpertly operated submarine in an instant.

[Jean-Paul Binot]

Nor will their neighbors acquire the expertise required to sink an inexpertly operated submarine in an instant.

Indeed. As someone once said, you can build an army in a year, and an airforce in 5 years, but for for a navy you might need a century, or something of that order.

In 1967 an unimpressive Soviet-built corvette sank an Israely destroyer in 1967, then in January 1968 an Egyptian minesweeper caused the Israeli sub Dakkar to deep-dive in shallow waters. The sub crashed on the bottom, leaving no survivor.

Conclusion, both Egypt and Israel at the time had warships and sailors, but not really a navy.

The real issue is that nowadays, wars are not primarily about military know-how anymore. Having weapons is often enough. You do not need to be able to use them...

[Werner]

All the Juliet, Tango, Whiskey, and Foxtrots have long since been made in to Indian and Korean automobiles.

Even the Kilo is passe.

They now have a new export diesel sub which features more electronics and lower manning. It is absolutely world class.

[Miguel]

No more subs to Venezuela ,I'm posting part of the newspaper(is translated from google so can have some mistakes)



It discards Venezuela purchase of submarines A Russian newspaper indicated yesterday that Moscow projects to sell to Caracas at least five submarines driven with diesel engine AP Caracas, Venezuela (15 June 2007). - The Venezuelan Government "has not at this moment considered" the purchase of Russian submarines, declared Minister of Defense Raul Baduel. Baduel did its declaration to Agency Bolivariana de Noticias (ABN) clarifying that "it has not considered, at this moment, the acquisition of those systems (the Russian submarines)". Before the critics that have arisen, specially of the United States, by the purchases of arms of Venezuela, Baduel it indicated that the country has the "sovereign right" to acquire the defensive armaments that it requires. It made the declaration in answer to a information that spread to Thursday a Russian newspaper that indicated that Russia projects to sell to Venezuela at least five submarines driven with diesel engine. On the matter the adviser of the General Staff of President Hugo Ch�vez, General Alberto Red M�ller, expressed that "the possibilities are being analyzed" of acquiring Russian submarines, but maintained that "until now there are resources no adjudged for that negotiation". The financial newspaper Russian Kommersant informed that Ch�vez would sign with authorities of Russia a preliminary agreement, during the visit that will make the 29 from June to Moscow, that would contemplate the delivery of five submarines to diesel engine Project 636 of the Kilo type. Also it added that Russia could later provide to Venezuela other four modern submarines Project 677 of the Amur type. In spite of the efforts of the United States to prevent that other countries sell armament to Venezuela, Russia has signed military contracts with the Government of Ch�vez by an approximated value of 3 billion dollars, becoming thus the main supplier of armament. The Venezuelan government has bought in the last two years to Russia 53 helicopters, 100 thousand guns Kalashnikok AK-103, and 24 airplanes Sukhoi-30 fighters.

[Dustermaker]

well it looks like the USA is going to have to fund Columbia into a South American superpower now......lol

[Lesforan]

I hope they do buy them. It will make getting funds for our own navy easier.

[Guest]

I hope they do buy them. It will make getting funds for our own navy easier.

Clearly increasing the strength of our navy is critical to our national needs. Therefore we much pray for the enemy to appear stronger so we may properly justify increasing the strength of our navy.

[Werner]

Nah, simply sink the deliveries and pay the international court of claims for the losses. It would be far cheaper. What could we get for $US 3 billion? One sub and a few fighter planes?

[largeallan]

"Therefore we much pray for the enemy to appear stronger so we may properly justify increasing the strength of our navy."

"the enemy"....Venezuela???...WHAT??? LOL

as for "praying" for it....are you a christian? There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in that, somehow

[JWintjes]

as for "praying" for it....are you a christian? There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in that, somehow

Quite apart from the fact that Chuck (I assume that was his post) meant that to be highly ironical I find the concept of "sanitizing" our language highly disturbing.

Why does language in any context have to be free of phrasing that can be traced back to religious use? You surely know that words like crikey, gee, gosh, darn, perhaps bloody all have religious connotations - why is it forbidden to use them? PC all the way right down to the language?

What the hell - wait, that's a Christian concept as well, or is it? Devilishly difficult - oops, did it again...

You know, a friend of mine is a member of a humanist society, agnosticism at all. Even he uses "devil" as an interjection...

Jorit

[largeallan]

I'm actually an atheist JW, though I don't see why my non-belief in any god needs to have a label....but atheist it is!

I'm not so sure that post was supposed to be ironic, yes, people DO use words like this and other religion derived terms......so what! As far as I'm concerned, there ARE too many people praying for this or that, or believing that their god is on their side no matter what, nor how contradictory.

My post was highlighting the irony in it........I don't need you or anyone else to point out common English usage to me, thanks.

As for Venezuela being the enemy, as it now seems to be portrayed with increasing regularity......you wonder why the highly repellant and militaristic regime in Chile was never demonised in such a way

[JWintjes]

I'm actually an atheist JW, though I don't see why my non-belief in any god needs to have a label....but atheist it is!

Hey, I have no problem with that - after all, it's a free world we live in!

I'm not so sure that post was supposed to be ironic, yes, people DO use words like this and other religion derived terms......so what!

Well, here we differ - I'm pretty sure that post was supposed to be ironic, not only because I presume it to be posted by Chuck but also due to the liberal use of smileys...

My post was highlighting the irony in it........I don't need you or anyone else to point out common English usage to me, thanks.

Sorry if it came across that way - perhaps I'm too light-skinned when it comes to PCing everything, but critizing the use of "pray" in that context simply struck me as odd.

As for Venezuela being the enemy, as it now seems to be portrayed with increasing regularity......you wonder why the highly repellant and militaristic regime in Chile was never demonised in such a way

Well, this, as always, is a matter of perspective, you know...

Jorit

[Jean-Paul Binot]

As for Venezuela being the enemy, as it now seems to be portrayed with increasing regularity......you wonder why the highly repellent and militaristic regime in Chile was never demonised in such a way

Simple, the Chilean Junta was not perceived to be at odds with American national interests, unlike the Allende administration that it toppled.

As the Victorian Prime Minister Lord Palmerston once said, "Nations have no permanent friends and no permanent enemies. Only permanent interests.". Successive US administrations have systematically promoted the self-interest of the United States, and rightly so. The only difference is that maybe in the past they tried harder to reconcile their action credibly with moral principles�

The US government has no God-given mission to be nice to any foreign nation, no more than any other government of any other nation. However, being the only superpower brings specific responsibility to exercise one's power particularly carefully. Being seen as the world's super bully is not in the interest of the United States.